I am enlightened. Sincere seekers: ask me anything

[Outer]

Is it possible for the body-mind to have no beliefs? Or must the body-mind have them and if so how do you choose?

How does the body-mind change after nondual Awakening?

[graded24]

2 hours ago, winterknight said:

Well this is where it gets tricky. Part of the illusion aspect of maya is that the very idea that it appears at all is part of that illusion. Seekers cannot understand this, which is why it is rarely said. Though I've said it on this thread a few times.

"Appearance" is a mental category. The reason maya is illusory is that the mind creates all categories, but when you see that the mind is a self-referential thought against the background of the Self, that it only exists through the lens of itself, all the categories are seen as wrong.

Tell me if the following analogy gets a little close to what you said about even illusion being an illusion:

There is a spiritual tradition called the headless way .  People dont notice that in their panorama of present experience, their own head is actually not there. In my direct experience, there is nothing where I assume my head to be. Once you notice this, you also notice that even the illusion of head was not there. It was something you just assumed and went along with. Just never occurred you to look at this way that the head is actually not there. So you notice that even the illusion of head wasnt there. 

[Jack River]

3 minutes ago, Outer said:

Is it possible for the body-mind to have no beliefs? Or must the body-mind have them and if so how do you choose?

How does the body-mind change after nondual Awakening?

Depends what you mean by belief. 

To me belief implies fear. And fear only exist and is acted upon or as (belief) when still being caught in the false division between the thinker and thought, feeler and the feeling, experiencer and the experience. 

No self no belief in either direction. As in belief or disbelief. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

24 minutes ago, winterknight said:

It cannot be called full realization until you've crossed the point where you realize it is not and never was a process. The "process" based idea is still in the seeking stage. Maybe the final stages of seeking... but still seeking. The end of the "process" will be a realization that there was never any process, there was never any returning to the self-based mindset, etc. In fact that's a good way to think even now. All these "returns" are illusory.

I may be at that transitional stage now. When I "return" to the "self" mindset, the "return" has a more mature essence. There isn't as much grasping for the "enlightened state" anymore.  It's all just whatever. It's all just what is. . .  Nonverbal insights during self inquiry, tired at work, thoughts about traveling, not wanting to wash the dishes etc. There can be this eternal "ISness" about it. As if I was just making shit up that it is somehow different. Yet, there is even an awareness that making up a story is just making up a story. No different than admiring a beautiful sunset, shedding a tear while reading a love poem or stepping in dog poo. 

There is no escaping what "IS". Everything is eternally IS

[Empty]

@winterknight Can you be enlightened and still go to a 9 to 5 job? 

[winterknight]

58 minutes ago, Jack River said:

@winterknight no dude. I am speaking in regards to being caught up in the illusion of divison. As in the lower case s “self” 

That was my original intention of my communication. This holistic unconditional undivided awareness that observes thought as movement sees the illusion, and in that seeing is action that ends that movement of self/ego/divison. 

Right, but what I'm saying that is that in fact there was never any movement, and therefore no end to it. 

57 minutes ago, Outer said:

Is it possible for the body-mind to have no beliefs? Or must the body-mind have them and if so how do you choose?

How does the body-mind change after nondual Awakening?

No, if we want to talk about the the body-mind, it must have beliefs. But actually the body-mind doesn't exist. 

And after awakening, it appears to grow quieter, but again, that's only if we admit its existence. Which we don't...

54 minutes ago, graded24 said:

Tell me if the following analogy gets a little close to what you said about even illusion being an illusion:

There is a spiritual tradition called the headless way .  People dont notice that in their panorama of present experience, their own head is actually not there. In my direct experience, there is nothing where I assume my head to be. Once you notice this, you also notice that even the illusion of head was not there. It was something you just assumed and went along with. Just never occurred you to look at this way that the head is actually not there. So you notice that even the illusion of head wasnt there. 

Yes, that's getting a little bit closer...

53 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I may be at that transitional stage now. When I "return" to the "self" mindset, the "return" has a more mature essence. There isn't as much grasping for the "enlightened state" anymore.  It's all just whatever. It's all just what is. . .  Nonverbal insights during self inquiry, tired at work, thoughts about traveling, not wanting to wash the dishes etc. There can be this eternal "ISness" about it. As if I was just making shit up that it is somehow different. Yet, there is even an awareness that making up a story is just making up a story. No different than admiring a beautiful sunset, shedding a tear while reading a love poem or stepping in dog poo. 

There is no escaping what "IS". Everything is eternally IS

Yup, everything eternally is... now can you trust that and simply let the mind totally, unconditionally relax, knowing that whatever happens, you are unaffected? Because that's the truth.

28 minutes ago, Empty said:

@winterknight Can you be enlightened and still go to a 9 to 5 job? 

Yes. The enlightened person does not identify themselves with the doer of actions. Their mind is quiet and relaxed. So when work happens they do not feel it is their painful effort.

Edited November 14, 2018 by winterknight

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, winterknight said:

Right, but what I'm saying that is that in fact there was never any movement, and therefore no end to it. 

Which is why the actual seeing of the fact ends the fact . That’s the awsome thing about this

If the fact is actually the case, as in “taking place”, this “movement”, then that is the fact. 

But the SEEING of “the fact” ends the fact. Because the fact was dependent on not SEEING it as false/illusion.. Do you see how I am using fact/actual. 

We need to remember that if this movement is “in motion” it is bringing about ACTUAL physical responses. “The movement” does bring about an actual physiological reaction. The change in body is not illusion, and my responses expressed as action in accordance to that, as in outwrd expression, is not an illusion. That is then a reality. An illusion can easily lead to a reality. 

How we use the words makes all the difference. We can use the words differently..

Do we see the fact of illusion. Do we see the reality of illusion. Do we see the actuality of illusion. As in can we see this illusion in movement as an illusion. 

 You see how we can use these words reality/actual/fact? 

 

[winterknight]

3 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Which is why the actual seeing of the fact ends the fact . That’s the awsome thing about this

If the fact is actually the case, as in “taking place”, this “movement”, then that is the fact. 

But the SEEING of “the fact” ends the fact. Because the fact was dependent on not SEEING it as false/illusion.. Do you see how I am using fact/actual. 

No, but what I'm saying is that there was no fact to end...

Quote

We need to remember that if this movement is “in motion” it is bringing about ACTUAL physical responses. “The movement” does bring about an actual physiological reaction. The change in body is not illusion, and my responses expressed as action in accordance to that, as in outwrd expression, is not an illusion. That is then a reality. An illusion can easily lead to a reality. 

How we use the words makes all the difference. We can use the words differently..

Do we see the fact of illusion. Do we see the reality of illusion. Do we see the actuality of illusion. As in can we see this illusion in movement as an illusion. 

 You see how we can use these words reality/actual/fact? 

"Actual physical responses" are also illusion. "Actual physiological reactions" are also illusion. "Changes in body" are also illusion, as well as responses as action in accordance with that, etc. etc. etc.

That's what I'm saying . You're free to disagree, of course, but that's my position. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by winterknight

[joeyi99]

Should I purse enlightenment hardcore if I'm young and am not fully financially independent yet? 

[winterknight]

7 minutes ago, joeyi99 said:

Should I purse enlightenment hardcore if I'm young and am not fully financially independent yet? 

If you feel the drive to truth, then yes, absolutely! But pursuing enlightenment is not just self-inquiry, it is also about discovering and being honest about what you want. I basically recommend psychodynamic/psychoanalytic therapy to all seekers. If you're young and financially dependent, you can probably get it pretty cheap.

[Forestluv]

44 minutes ago, winterknight said:

 

Yup, everything eternally is... now can you trust that and simply let the mind totally, unconditionally relax, knowing that whatever happens, you are unaffected? Because that's the truth.

Thanks.

Yet, even in the busiest mind, is there not an underlying stillness? As if one is sitting in a busy area of NYC at complete peace?

[seeking_brilliance]

@winterknight what was your work schedule like for the past few years pursuing this?  Are you married? Kids? If not, would you see yourself getting this far this soon with wife or kids / busy schedule? 

I know you've mentioned many times before you do not identify with Maya, but for the shits and giggles, do you like Maya? Or at least does that body's stream of me - thoughts like Maya? Do they still get some kind of excitement for it?  Have you had mystical experiences? 

Edited November 14, 2018 by seeking_brilliance

[winterknight]

18 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Thanks.

Yet, even in the busiest mind, is there not an underlying stillness? As if one is sitting in a busy area of NYC at complete peace?

Yes, there certainly is. Yet that busy-ness can occur even when the mind is utterly relaxed -- those busy thoughts will arise as if involuntarily, and effortlessly, and will not feel as if they have any burden to them.

14 minutes ago, seeking_brilliance said:

@winterknight what was your work schedule like for the past few years pursuing this?  Are you married? Kids? If not, would you see yourself getting this far this soon with wife or kids / busy schedule? 

I know you've mentioned many times before you do not identify with Maya, but for the shits and giggles, do you like Maya? Or at least do your body's stream of me - thoughts like Maya? Do they still get some kind of excitement for it?  Have you had mystical experiences? 

I've been pursuing this for 20 years, and have had various kinds of work schedule. No family. These are not the main issues, though. The reality is that 99% of the obstacles are psychological and will follow you wherever you go and whatever you do or don't do.

The key point is to align what you do with what you actually want -- to be honest about what you actually want, not what you think you should want. If you really want a family and try to become a monk, you will create more obstacles for your spiritual search than if you had your family and pursued spirituality along with it.

Sure, maya can be fun for the one in maya. I like music, literature, friends, politics, and more. I've definitely had various mystical experiences. It's fun, but it's all superficial in a way.

Edited November 14, 2018 by winterknight

[Jack River]

37 minutes ago, winterknight said:

No, but what I'm saying is that there was no fact to end...

Quote

No I understand that. Lol 

37 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Actual physical responses" are also illusion. "Actual physiological reactions" are also illusion. "Changes in body" are also illusion, as well as responses as action in accordance with that, etc. etc. etc.

That's what I'm saying . You're free to disagree, of course, but that's my position. 

No I’m not arguing my dude. 

I am aware that “the physical” is just conditioned perception limited by senses/thought. 

Is that what you are meaning by illusion? 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Jack River

[winterknight]

3 minutes ago, Jack River said:

No I understand that. Lol 

No I’m not arguing my dude. 

I am aware that “the physical” is just conditioned perception limited to senses. 

Is that what are meaning by illusion? 

Almost... I'm suggesting going one step further and realizing that even the idea of "conditioned perception" is itself just a thought. It doesn't really exist.

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Yes, there certainly is. Yet that busy-ness can occur even when the mind is utterly relaxed -- those busy thoughts will arise as if involuntarily, and effortlessly, and will not feel as if they have any burden to them.

Like birds chirping in my backyard.

[winterknight]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Like birds chirping in my backyard.

Nice. Exactly.

[Jack River]

19 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Almost... I'm suggesting going one step further and realizing that even the idea of "conditioned perception" is itself just a thought. It doesn't really exist.

Fosho. I feel ya. I see what you were getting at now. Of course I’m not referring to the idea/thought. 

“I” know that “I’m” blind 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

@winterknight The whole bit about enlightenment being a process is just another story in the mind. Just another illusion of the seeker. . . 

Illusory thoughts are connected to create illusory stories. Illusory stories are connected to form an illusory self. The illusory self sets up an illusory game of life. The self seeks to validate and protect itself. It must keep itself relevant to stay in the game.

Other selfs seek truth and liberation through enlightenment. They seek all over the world for years and years, only to realize they were enlightened all along.

The greatest cosmic joke ever told. . . 

[seeking_brilliance]

@winterknight I hope I don't embarrass myself, but here goes.  Please correct me!

I have seen that all thoughts are me-thoughts, because all thoughts are about how this thought relates to "me". In this sense, everything I view around me (more thoughts) and touch and feel  (even more) are included in this false sense of self, as me-thoughts. That means this entire reality I perceive is me, the false I. Not saying reality itself, whatever that is, but just the one these me-thoughts are thinking about. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by seeking_brilliance