I am enlightened. Sincere seekers: ask me anything

[winterknight]

2 minutes ago, Outer said:

It's rather a belief that in sleep consciousness continues and it is forever... There's consciousness now, but it's not during sleep... That's why I don't get why I can realize truth without it being a belief, I've looked and I don't see why it would be any other way. How is this consciousness a reflection of the real consciousness? Where is it?

Well, there are two possible responses to this. Either you can investigate through RM's self-inquiry and find out for yourself... or we can have an extended intellectual discussion about this, which is inferior, provisional knowledge, but sometimes it's necessary. What are you looking for?

2 minutes ago, Preetom said:

Yes. It's like the silent mind, open and loose effect you get from doing 2 hours of self inquiry; you get that pretty much the same effect just by being with a sage for lets say 30 minutes.

Both Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj was supposed to have to this effect. Sometimes the questioners would argue and ask questions but after some time they would just see their own bullshit and just shut up. Their minds got silent and rested. Of course the same effect didn't happen with everyone. 

It seems like the devotee has to have a certain level of spiritual maturity to receive this 'transmission'

Yes, that sounds right to me.

[Wisebaxter]

@winterknight What is this thing, located within this 'body', that feels like me? That is aware of moving through space when it decides to move through space, that feels sensation when it decides to reach out and touch something? If I am not the body, why do senses, which I experience, reside within the body? 

[winterknight]

1 minute ago, Outer said:

I do think that if you can convince me I will be enlightened. Where is the real consciousness?

Well, the truth is that you will not find the real consciousness through intellectual discussion. 

But if you want an intellectual understanding... let's start with this question. Do you agree that matter cannot account for consciousness? Or do you think your brain generates consciousness, and that the universe is made of matter?

1 minute ago, Wisebaxter said:

@winterknight What is this thing, located within this 'body', that feels like me? That is aware of moving through space when it decides to move through space, that feels sensation when it decides to reach out and touch something? If I am not the body, why do senses, which I experience, reside within the body? 

Why not look for the "I" which knows these senses, the ones which you write "I experience"? Once you find that through RM's self-inquiry, you will have the answer to these questions as well.

[Preetom]

5 minutes ago, Outer said:

It's rather a belief that in sleep consciousness continues and it is forever... 

Have you looked into it as a belief in 'time'?

[Outer]

2 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Well, there are two possible responses to this. Either you can investigate through RM's self-inquiry and find out for yourself... or we can have an extended intellectual discussion about this, which is inferior, provisional knowledge, but sometimes it's necessary. What are you looking for?

All that is known is Outer consciousness, I do not know winterknight consciousness. How is Outer a reflection of  the real consciousness? Where is it? Why don't I know it like I know Outer consciousness?

[winterknight]

Just now, Outer said:

All that is known is Outer consciousness, I do not know winterknight consciousness. How is Outer a reflection of  the real consciousness? Where is it? Why don't I know it like I know Outer consciousness?

Well, you think you know Outer consciousness. "I know it," you would say, and "I do not know winterknight's consciousness," you say. You use that word "I" without understanding it. Find out this I and you will have the answers to your questions.

[Outer]

2 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Well, you think you know Outer consciousness. "I know it," you would say, and "I do not know winterknight's consciousness," you say. You use that word "I" without understanding it. Find out this I and you will have the answers to your questions.

So you've found this I so you know where the real consciousness is and you know it?

Edited November 11, 2018 by Outer

[Wisebaxter]

@winterknight Some people say 'God is love,' is there any truth to this? That to experience love is to experience God? Or is this just another experience like any other? 

[winterknight]

Just now, Outer said:

So you've found this I so you know where the real consciousness is and you know it?

It is not that I know it, but that it knows itself, and that fact becomes quite clear once you investigate. It is not located in a location so one cannot say "where" it is. 

The truth is you are experiencing this real consciousness right this very second. It is so blindingly obvious, so intimate, that you cannot recognize it. If you would get out of your own way it would become clear. But that almost always takes inquiry .

[winterknight]

4 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

@winterknight Some people say 'God is love,' is there any truth to this? That to experience love is to experience God? Or is this just another experience like any other? 

Well, God is love can mean different things. The only real love is the Self (which is nothing other than God). It is the abundance that requires nothing, that is full, that is peaceful.

But if you're asking whether experiencing human love is experiencing God, yes, in a way. Human love can give a powerful experience of a quieting of the mind, an erasure of various egoic boundaries. So that can be a glimpse into your true nature.

But only a glimpse. That's because human love comes and goes. What comes and goes is not your true nature. The real love is permanent, perfect, and unchanging. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by winterknight

[Wisebaxter]

@winterknight Loved that  thanks 

[Preetom]

4 minutes ago, winterknight said:

The truth is you are experiencing this real consciousness right this very second. It is so blindingly obvious, so intimate, that you cannot recognize it. If you would get out of your own way it would become clear. But that almost always takes inquiry .

So this implies that the present consciousness IS the one and only Absolute Consciousness but limited by the illusory projection of the I-thought?

[non_nothing]

1 hour ago, winterknight said:

Investigate the I using Ramana Maharshi's self-inquiry and you'll understand that all these questions arise out of a misconception. That's the ultimate truth. 

Otherwise, we could say: God is behind creation and this existence is his will, as are the fact that we are humans. "I" am not really enlightened except as a figure of speech (enlightenment is the destruction of the notion of any I that could be enlightened)... but if I am it too is by God's will. The process is as I have outlined it here and here.

Yes, all beliefs are technically wrong, because words can't express the Truth. If it bothers you to say that you are conscious in your sleep, you can drop that idea. It doesn't much matter to awakening.

Unless, of course you really need to understand the deep intellectual framework before you feel comfortable proceeding. In which case, yes, try to resolve that doubt.

The one who would say "my mind-body" is also technically false, as is the idea of a mind-body itself . But if we admit him and the mind-body, then yes, that appears and interacts with other characters...

Thanks, I have read a bit about Ramashis work after you told in this post about 1 hour. What do you think:

-Why there're states of perception, i.e awake state, dream state, deep no body state.

-Why are there even states, why are you here in the awake state? why the experience is here right now?

-Did I born in this body? Why there's beginning and end for a body life?
-I have no memory. Why body has memory?

 

[Outer]

7 minutes ago, winterknight said:

It is not that I know it, but that it knows itself, and that fact becomes quite clear once you investigate. It is not located in a location so one cannot say "where" it is. 

The truth is you are experiencing this real consciousness right this very second. It is so blindingly obvious, so intimate, that you cannot recognize it. If you would get out of your own way it would become clear. But that almost always takes inquiry .

But why does the real consciousness not know itself in sleep? Why is consciousness knowing itself so related to memory? If you had dementia would you know yourself?

Edited November 11, 2018 by Outer

[winterknight]

Just now, Preetom said:

So this implies that the present consciousness IS the one and only Absolute Consciousness but limited by the illusory projection of the I-thought?

Well, almost. Even the idea of a limitation is itself, in the end, untrue. There is no limitation and no illusion. Seekers have to act as if there is, because that is their experience, but in the end, the realization is that there was never any illusion, never any seeking, never any seeker, never any illusory I thought.

[Wisebaxter]

@winterknight Do you still experience sensations like craving? Or needing/wanting/desiring things to be a certain way? 

[Jack River]

18 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Well, the truth is that you will not find the real consciousness through intellectual discussion. 

But if you want an intellectual understanding... let's start with this question. Do you agree that matter cannot account for consciousness? Or do you think your brain generates consciousness, and that the universe is made of matter?

We could say that intellectual understanding to come to the whole (pure consciousness) is this matter trying to see through it’s own limits beyond itself? You see it that way too dude?

Edited November 11, 2018 by Jack River

[Preetom]

2 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Well, almost. Even the idea of a limitation is itself, in the end, untrue. There is no limitation and no illusion. Seekers have to act as if there is, because that is their experience, but in the end, the realization is that there was never any illusion, never any seeking, never any seeker, never any illusory I thought.

So the idea of 'reflected consciousness' becomes redundant as well?

[winterknight]

1 minute ago, non_nothing said:

Thanks, I have read a bit about Ramashis work after you told in this post about 1 hour. What do you think:

-Why there're states of perception, i.e awake state, dream state, deep no body state.

-Why are there even states, why are you here in the awake state? why the experience is here right now?

-Did I born in this body? Why there's beginning and end for a body life?
-I have no memory. Why body has memory?

 

In reality there are no states of perception, no body, no beginning and end, no memory. Investigate using RM's self-inquiry and you finally realize this is so. 

2 minutes ago, Outer said:

But why does the real consciousness not know itself in sleep? Why is consciousness knowing itself so related to memory? If you had dementia would you know yourself?

It does know itself in sleep. The problem is that the only consciousness that you understand is waking and/or dreaming consciousness, so it's going to be very hard for you to comprehend how that could be the case.

The consciousness that you know and can conceive of is consciousness with a subject and an object -- "I know that." But the deeper consciousness is beyond that duality.

Again, either you have to actually practice self-inquiry and see for yourself what that means (that's the only real way), or if you want we can have an extended discussion about the intellectual framework in which this could be true. 

2 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

@winterknight Do you still experience sensations like craving? Or needing/wanting/desiring things to be a certain way? 

The one who experiences sensations and needs is a false idea. But if, for the sake of discussion, we admit him, then yes, but in a much weakened way.

1 minute ago, Jack River said:

We could say that intellectual understanding to come to the whole is this matter trying to see through it’s own limits beyond itself? You see it that way too dude?

Sure, more or less.

[Wisebaxter]

1 minute ago, winterknight said:

The one who experiences sensations and needs is a false idea. But if, for the sake of discussion, we admit him, then yes, but in a much weakened way.

So it's as if the sensations, or echos of an ego still remain, but you just become very detached from them and unaffected?