Why are some people willing to surrend their ego work and others not?

[Guest gilded_honour]

Why some people are willing and capable of starting off doing the spiritual work and fighting with their ego, dissolving it. And others -- not yet. What does it depend on?

 

Is this black and white: a person is either ready or not yet? And you can't force those who aren't ready yet. Then how do they become ready -- by living more reincarnations and getting more experiences?

Edited November 7, 2018 by gilded_honour

[Joseph Maynor]

What you think is surrendering Ego is not without Ego paradoxically.  Ego, like the Body, is always part of Experience.  Ego and body are part of my Experience, but that doesn't mean that as God Awareness I'm attached to them as mine or as me.  What I am has nothing to do with Ego or body.  This is really hard to communicate in language.  Do I have a massive Ego?  Yes.  Am I attached to my massive Ego?  No.  Ego is just something that is part of Experience for me.  And here's the thing, you have a massive Ego too.  Even people who think they don't have a massive Ego have a massive Ego.  You can't escape Ego with more Ego.  Don't try to escape Ego in the first place.  This is like trying to escape the body.  Allow Ego and the body to be part of Experience, just don't attach to them as mine or me.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[kieranperez]

This is actually a REALLY good question. I’ve been pondering this myself and I think the place this discussion starts is the variability of what “surrender” may mean for certain people. For some people, really is a renunciation if the material world as they are truly called to become a sadhu/monk (Om Swami is a good example of this). Other people it’s a surrender of all attachments and such but they themselves are at a place where for one reason or another don’t feel the intrinsic motivation or desire or even need to go to the extent of the monk and can reach high spiritual attainments and degrees of mastery while in the ordinary world (Ralston is a good example of this). 

In terms of readiness to surrender, I actually think, and even @Leo Gura covered this in the 65 principles episode, it’s really important to really get a handle on all the bases prior to self-transcendence covered on Maslow’s hierarchy before you can really effectively surrender sufficiently. Even I f you look at the Buddha, look at his story before he became a samana. He was a compassionate guy, was an athlete, got along great with people, had a wife, people loved him, he was a smart kid, etc. he just then eventually want more. Even Om Swami (whose storyline matches Buddha’s almost perfectly to the T). You’ve gotta put yourself in a position in terms of inner development where you’re so positively motivated towards this thing called Truth that you really are willing to give everything to get it. Read the monk memoir in the booklist in the consciousness/enlightenment section to get what I mean. This has been especially revealing to me since I do have a desire for Truth but I also don’t have my shit together at all internally and externally that I know that there can’t really be a genuine surrender which is a really bitter pill for me to swallow but hey, it’s part of the journey. 

Some tips though is to really do some good ego clean up and emotional work and trauma work. See a healer, go to a Sat Yoga retreat where they do healing using what they call Atmanology (a combination between psychoanalysis, transpersonal psychology, meditation, and so on). Also, really hone in on locking yourself into the self actualization stage on Maslow’s hierarchy, get all your bases covered. Build up your practice along the way. Cultivate your intuition too. 

[herghly]

@kieranperez Have you been to Sat Yoga?

[kieranperez]

16 minutes ago, herghly said:

@kieranperez Have you been to Sat Yoga?

No but I’ve talked to Shunyamurti personally and have done A LOT of research on him, his story, background, his essays, his style of practice, etc. as I almost renounced to become a sanyasa at Sat Yoga and study to become a healer as well in atmanology.

Shuntanurti knows his stuff and what he’s doing. He’s more of an inspiration for my Life Purpose than anything else to be honest. Absolutely love what he’s doing. I still would love to go there and study atmanology and get some healing work myself. 

Edited November 7, 2018 by kieranperez

[Solace]

Whom is ready? Whom is not ready?

Who is the one that determines this?

The answer is a feeling. Where is this in you? And then you can ask, to whom is this feeling? And continue the self-enquiry.

Edited November 7, 2018 by Solace

[now is forever]

5 hours ago, gilded_honour said:

Some people are willing to do the spiritual work, other not. What does it depend on? Is this black and white: a person is either ready or not yet? And you can't force those who aren't ready yet. Then how do they become ready -- by living more reincarnations and getting more experiences?

there is no „one“ path, especially if you decided to keep your hands on the world. all methods are only vehicles. the soul delivers itself.

Edited November 7, 2018 by now is forever

[Forestluv]

@gilded_honour Why would someone place Truth higher than security and comfort?

[Key Elements]

17 hours ago, gilded_honour said:

Some people are willing to do the spiritual work, other not. What does it depend on? Is this black and white: a person is either ready or not yet? And you can't force those who aren't ready yet. Then how do they become ready -- by living more reincarnations and getting more experiences?

These are actually good questions. It's actually interconnected. That's what I heard and make of it. You still have to live this life to your fullest. Help others learn to love and reduce suffering. Otherwise, why would it be here? You may get an awakening (enlightenment experience, experiencing the no-self), but you may not achieve nirvana by the end of your lifetime. Depending on your karma, you'll come back on earth again learning lessons until you get it right. You have a choice to take action and move forward. Ask yourself, which would you rather do if you had a choice--let go of your ego and experience the no-self (awakening)? Or, achieve nirvana upon your actual death because you reduced suffering on earth? I would take the latter. Ideally, one would want to experience both, but in most cases, the latter is the better choice. If you go for the latter, sometimes you'll have an awakening automatically because you've reduced your karma. It could work in many ways and in no particular order. Karma is incredibly profound and should be taken into consideration while going through life. Use your life purpose as a vehicle to move you forward, learn your lessons, and reduce suffering for others and eventually, the world.

[Guest gilded_honour]

14 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

What you think is surrendering Ego is not without Ego paradoxically.  Ego, like the Body, is always part of Experience.  Ego and body are part of my Experience, but that doesn't mean that as God Awareness I'm attached to them as mine or as me.  What I am has nothing to do with Ego or body.  This is really hard to communicate in language.  Do I have a massive Ego?  Yes.  Am I attached to my massive Ego?  No.  Ego is just something that is part of Experience for me.  And here's the thing, you have a massive Ego too.  Even people who think they don't have a massive Ego have a massive Ego.  You can't escape Ego with more Ego.  Don't try to escape Ego in the first place.  This is like trying to escape the body.  Allow Ego and the body to be part of Experience, just don't attach to them as mine or me.

You don't understand what it is I asked.

 

I asked: why are some people capable of fighting with their ego and dissolving it.... And others - not YET.

[Guest gilded_honour]

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

 Why would someone place Truth higher than security and comfort?

Yes. Why?

[Guest gilded_honour]

@kieranperez interesting

[Forestluv]

22 minutes ago, gilded_honour said:

Yes. Why?

It's an acquired taste through direct experience. There is an energetic shift from a self orientation to a direct being orientation.

The self will rebel - it's a total loss for the self. An awakening experience is quite simple - yet it is unpalatable to the self. Selfs don't awaken because they don't want to awaken. They want to control the narrative. A self wants to be relevant. It wants a story, beliefs, opinions. It wants to seek through conversation, debate, books, religions, spirituality, retreats, ashrams etc. Yet, it is always zero steps from enlightenment. It is eternally present now. It will never be found in the timeline. Never to be found outside of here and now.

 

[kieranperez]

3 hours ago, gilded_honour said:

why are some people capable of fighting with their ego and dissolving it.... And others - not YET.

Because they’re not actually fighting man. Read my post dude. These people are devloped enough where they see that sacrificing the unreal isn’t really a sacrifice. They realize they’ve been settling for the crumbs and there’s a colossal cake they can have and so they don’t need to fight with themselves. It goes back to the simple positive vs. negative motivation. The Buddha was compelled to search for Truth which is why he was able to go through all the gruesome austerities he put himself through. He had a vision yes, but his vision was genuine! Same goes for modern day Buddha’s like Om Swami. What’s tricky though is that you can’t really manufacture a genuine desire. Most people can’t surrender to that degree because, even if they say they want to (myself being a good example), because they’re just going to kick and scream the whole way through because they’re egos/character that they operate through are so fragmented, traumatized, conditioned, and hurt (which is why good psychotherapy and spiritual purification work - to me there really isn’t that much of a difference - is necessary for the majority of people). This is where moving up Maslow’s hierarchy is important, cleaning up your trauma, doing some good psychotherapy whether with a good psychotherapist or solo (psychedelics, psychoanalysis, dream work, shadow work, etc), developing discipline, fixing up your character/self, and so on. Otherwise, sure you can renounce society, go to a cave in the Himalayas, shave your head, find your guru, and then once you’re in that cave (if you’ve even made it this far without some sort of breakdown) you’ll likely have schizophrenic or psychotic crackup because you don’t have the psychology and development to go through that. Or even just taking 5-MeO-DMT. Good luck taking most people (who are undeveloped as fuck) and see them surrender. 

[Psyche_92]

19 hours ago, gilded_honour said:

Why some people are willing and capable of starting off doing the spiritual work and fighting with their ego, dissolving it. And others -- not yet. What does it depend on?

Because that's how it happens.

 

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Because they’re not actually fighting man. Read my post dude. These people are developed enough where they see that sacrificing the unreal isn’t really a sacrifice. They realize they’ve been settling for the crumbs and there’s a colossal cake they can have and so they don’t need to fight with themselves. It goes back to the simple positive vs. negative motivation. 

I'd say this is an intermediate stage in the self dissolution process. It can be extremely difficult and uncomfortable to reach this stage. 

Once this stage is reached, it becomes clear that living within the personality is like drinking gutter water and living beyond the personality is like drinking spring water. Then there is an energetic shift of motivation arising from the self to seek personal needs to an energy seeking to be that Truth.

That's been my experience anyway.

[Salvijus]

@gilded_honour Sorry I don't know the answer to your question but this reminded me of one time when I tried to talk about nonduality with my dad and he just blanked out. I mean he fell asleep in like 15sec and started snoring :D:D:D funny how for some people's mind is resisting so much that even if you utter anything close to truth it will shut off

The answer to your question is probably going to be some metaphysical, spiritual, celestial dimensionless type of answer

I heard that just by getting exposed to surtain things like a guru or sacred places can deside that you'll get awakened in next life. 

So there are a lot of things, like a million things that influence this thing. 

What is the most mind boggling thing to me is how some sages can reincarnate into the next life being fully confident that they'll get enlighten. Like they fix something inside to make that happen. As I said... This is some meta spiritual stuff

Edited November 8, 2018 by Salvijus

[kieranperez]

19 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

I'd say this is an intermediate stage in the self dissolution process. It can be extremely difficult and uncomfortable to reach this stage. 

Once this stage is reached, it becomes clear that living within the personality is like drinking gutter water and living beyond the personality is like drinking spring water. Then there is an energetic shift of motivation arising from the self to seek personal needs to an energy seeking to be that Truth.

That's been my experience anyway.

Exactly. It's that exact intermediate stage that most people - again, I include myself in this - don't see and is what really prevents people from being able to surrender. There's a big intermediate gap between wanting to pursue painting and having the skills and brilliance to paint the Mona Lisa. Same thing. Which is what most people miss and why most people can't surrender and also can't master anything because they either bounce from wanting the whole cake when they haven't built themselves up enough internally enough or to wanting no cake at all and then just dabble and stuff. A purification in the motivational system needs to happen and also a purification in the character itself.

[Forestluv]

37 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Exactly. It's that exact intermediate stage that most people - again, I include myself in this - don't see and is what really prevents people from being able to surrender. There's a big intermediate gap between wanting to pursue painting and having the skills and brilliance to paint the Mona Lisa. Same thing. Which is what most people miss and why most people can't surrender and also can't master anything because they either bounce from wanting the whole cake when they haven't built themselves up enough internally enough or to wanting no cake at all and then just dabble and stuff. A purification in the motivational system needs to happen and also a purification in the character itself.

Very well said. 

For me, the early stages involved putting cracks into the shell surrounding my personality. For example, I found myself defending my beliefs a lot and getting into debates with people. People would get exhausted and ask "Can we just agree to disagree?". That got me even more energized to get my point across. After a while, it just didn't feel good. Then I started asking myself "Would I rather be 'right' or happy?". This put the first cracks into my personal beliefs. Quite often, my self would answer "I'd rather be happy" and was willing to let go of a belief for the moment. Then, I started looking for where these beliefs came from and if I even believe my own beliefs 

[Guest gilded_honour]

On 11/7/2018 at 1:51 PM, Serotoninluv said:

It's an acquired taste through direct experience. There is an energetic shift from a self orientation to a direct being orientation.

The self will rebel - it's a total loss for the self. An awakening experience is quite simple - yet it is unpalatable to the self. Selfs don't awaken because they don't want to awaken. They want to control the narrative. A self wants to be relevant. It wants a story, beliefs, opinions. It wants to seek through conversation, debate, books, religions, spirituality, retreats, ashrams etc. Yet, it is always zero steps from enlightenment. It is eternally present now. It will never be found in the timeline. Never to be found outside of here and now.

 

That doesn't answer "why", man.

 

On 11/7/2018 at 5:15 PM, kieranperez said:

Because they’re not actually fighting man. Read my post dude. These people are devloped enough where they see that sacrificing the unreal isn’t really a sacrifice.

By  fighting I mean ability, capacity and willingness to do the work.