Can An Advice Be So Advanced It's Inefficient?

[Philip]

@Amplituda

1 hour ago, Amplituda said:

I think advice and experienced should be shared from highest level we're in today without any adjustments.

Ha ! finally someone who disagrees ! Thanks for coming 

1 hour ago, Amplituda said:

If person isn't that advanced but open minded to advance concept he/she will grasp it pretty quick.

That's a good point. You're right. We probably met so many close-minded people in our life that we generalize everyone as such. And that's probably why we developed a methodology that is suited for convincing even the most stubborn idiot.

Maybe we don't have to look out that much for close-mindedness on this forum. I think this is the most open-minded community I've seen yet. @abrakamowse is a good example of this, if you look at the beginning of this thread.

1 hour ago, Amplituda said:

On the other hand, there are folks who think they know everything and therefore can't grasp many different concepts. I found it's almost impossible to be productive with those people regardless which level they are in.

That right here seems to be the core of our disagreement. Personally I've made enormous progress in convincing close-minded people during those last 4 years or so. And the main techniques I've developed are:

• Asking honest, humble and open-minded questions in order to really understand the other person's opinion. Instead of just waiting for my turn to talk and trying to teach my opinion, like most people do. Although sometimes it results in me being convinced by them, instead of the other way around. Hehe...
• Doubting myself a lot. Not talking as if I was the ultimate holder truth, but rather as a student of life who just found a new study buddy.
• If I feel negative emotions towards someone, talking about that instead of talking about how wrong the person is.
• Not picking on details I don't like in their world view. Focusing on their main argument instead. And not changing subjects until I understand their point of view a little more.

I humbly suggest you try those tricks just one last time before saying that close-minded people are THAT hard to convince.

[Henri]

@Consept You are right.

The genuine teaching from a Guru is in silence, while meditating. That`s astonishing and an experience I would wish to everybody to experience.

[charlie2dogs]

2 minutes ago, Consept said:

A lot of the gurus I listen to Mooji, sadhguru etc I always get the feeling that they want to just unleash the full force of their wisdom but they always hold back so the person understands. It's quite funny cos I imagine they're thinking 'just get it!!'. The thing is the ultimate thing to understand is just acceptance and so the actual words are very simple but it feels like it almost needs to get complicated for people to understand it, because they can't accept that it would be that easy. 

So regardless of the words used it has to make sense to who you're saying it to otherwise what's the point, that doesn't mean that the person shouldn't do a bit of work to get to understand it. 

 

Concept , i guess you have noticed the crowds of people who set at the feet of those two you named.  Those people are not there to debate their beliefs, they are there seeking what experience Mooji and Sadhguru has to offer them,  in a public forum it is never that way, and those two men would never attempt to do what they do in a public forum.  Im sure that you have seen many that talked to Mooji, and most just never get it, you can see that for yourself in the satangs, and the number that get it in a public forum will be even less. 

[jjer94]

30 minutes ago, Emerald Wilkins said:

I love the Mario analogy.  If you don't mind my asking is the 94 in your name referring to your birth year? If so, I'm even more thoroughly impressed by the wisdom and maturity of your perspective. But even if you're older than that, I'm still impressed. 

Yep  

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, jjer94 said:

Yep  

Nice.

[Philip]

1 minute ago, Socrates said:

This is your problem.  What you're doing is trying to micromanage every last interaction and using all mean necessary technique like spiral dynamics.  Thats the mark of somebody who doesnt believe in themselves and needs to manipulate to get others to hear them. And if you think people are assholes for not adopting your beliefs or strategy then you might want to check reality again.

Thanks for that. You're right. 

I definitely try to convince people.

I definitely post for rep more than truth.

I definitely don't believe in myself in a healthy way.

I definitely don't know if you really are an asshole or if you're just better than me at being authentic.

This is definitely one of my main problems in life.

8 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Trying to convince never works.  I could piss 1000 people off and it doesn't matter because good debate always leaves impression and plants seeds for later date when the person ready for it.

However, I hope you don't think you're actually helping people with your strategy. From a honesty and authenticity point of view, your strategy is great. From an efficiency point of view, it kind of sucks. You close most people's minds more than you open them. Most of them forget all about you in an instant because they don't have time to listen to people they don't trust.

At least your strategy works like magic with people like me. Because I actually want to understand your opinion, especially if it makes me fucking uncomfortable or angry the first time I read it. So If you have any hurtful comment for me, don't hesitate. I can't wait for that kind of pain to strike my ego.

[Philip]

2 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Strategy?  You talk like a master manipulating wussy.  

@Socrates And that's because I am.

[Philip]

Just now, Socrates said:

Honestly, I feel bad that I don't live upto your expectation.  

Do I really care though?

Not really.  Sorry

I love that honesty right there! It's fucking refreshing.

On some level I want your approval so much because I see you as a clever dude.

I'm also probably searching for a paternal figure in you, so that I can live up to your expectation, because my father never gave me the attention I wanted.

But when I think about it for more than 2 seconds, do I really consciously care about that whole approval game ?

Nope haha. I'm just a mindless stimulus response animal. Even insulting myself like this is just another way of feeling better about myself. How sad...

[SkyPanther]

2 minutes ago, Philip said:

I love that honesty right there! It's fucking refreshing.

On some level I want your approval so much because I see you as a clever dude.

I'm also probably searching for a paternal figure in you, so that I can live up to your expectation, because my father never gave me the attention I wanted.

But when I think about it for more than 2 seconds, do I really consciously care about that whole approval game ?

Nope haha. I'm just a mindless stimulus response animal. Even insulting myself like this is just another way of feeling better about myself. How sad...

Hey, at least you admit it.   Most people go their whole lives without being honest, and seeing that in themselves.   As long as you see it, there is nothing wrong with having fun with whatever...  just as long as you know it's actually really silly in the first place.

It's how I feel when I play Fallout 4 for hours... (How silly, I am playing a game and wasting my time again!)

[Philip]

7 minutes ago, Philip said:

I'm just a mindless stimulus response animal. Even insulting myself like this is just another way of feeling better about myself. How sad...

@SkyPanther I'm able to say it. But am I really aware of it ?

And you just gave me rep for that comment. So it's safer to say I'm just saying smart stuff in order to get rep. Isn't it?

I feel like I never really stopped playing the validation game since I'm born. I just became good at denying that I'm playing it.

See? I'm doing it again. I can't escape it. My life feels fucking worthless right now. But I still love the pain. 

[SkyPanther]

4 minutes ago, Philip said:

@SkyPanther I'm able to say it. But am I really aware of it ?

And you just gave me rep for that comment. So it's safer to say I'm just saying smart stuff in order to get rep. Isn't it?

I feel like I never really stopped playing the validation game since I'm born. I just became good at denying that I'm playing it.

See? I'm doing it again. I can't escape it. My life feels fucking worthless right now. But I still love the pain. 

Well, but that's why life is fun.... sometimes... we can delude ourselves to think whatever we want to think because thinking, doing or saying it makes us feel good.   Nothing really wrong with it, but props for picking it up, because most people don't.

[Philip]

Here's a summary of what I think about this topic now. There are two main steps you should follow when you share your insight with someone.

1. Try to know if the person is open-minded. If they are, then blatantly report your opinion without any filter whatsoever. Don't even do step 2.
2. Try to estimate the person's level of consciousness. Then try to give an advice that is just a bit higher on the consciousness spectrum.

[Isle of View]

@Philip

I had some good laughs about your honesty in this thread!

 

 

[Philip]

@Isle of View

26 minutes ago, Isle of View said:

@Philip I had some good laughs about your honesty in this thread!

Please don't encourage me. I'm such an attention whore lol

[nbolt]

6 hours ago, Philip said:

I've noticed a bunch of people on this forum who were posting really profound and high-consciouness comments containing deep insights about the nature of reality.

But sometimes, it seemed to me that their advice was too advanced for the person they were interacting with. 

The way I give advice is I try to go just a small step beyond where the person is already at. I try to give an advice that is not too high-consciousness and advanced, so that the person is wise enough to get it. But also, I try to make it high enough, so that the person has to change some of their mindsets in order to get there. Their mind has to stretch, but not so much that it breaks, if you see what I mean.

So what's your opinion?

• Should we unleash the full power of our wisdom without worrying too much about the other person's level of consciousness?
• Or should we try to adjust our speaking in order to be closer to the person's current level of advancement?

I do think it is important to be able to understand the perspective of the person you're giving advice to. I just finished watching a video by Stephen Wolinsky who spoke on this exact subject, and I think explains it pretty well. Leo, of course, also points this out in many of his own videos.

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Neill Bolton

[Consept]

7 hours ago, charlie2dogs said:

Concept , i guess you have noticed the crowds of people who set at the feet of those two you named.  Those people are not there to debate their beliefs, they are there seeking what experience Mooji and Sadhguru has to offer them,  in a public forum it is never that way, and those two men would never attempt to do what they do in a public forum.  Im sure that you have seen many that talked to Mooji, and most just never get it, you can see that for yourself in the satangs, and the number that get it in a public forum will be even less. 

@charlie2dogs

Right I agree but if that's the case then the people in the public forum are just not 'ready' to get it so in that case all you can do is put the knowledge out there and when they are ready hopefully they'll come to it. 

When I first started getting in to eckhart tolle it really blew me away, he was one of the the first spiritual speakers I got into, so much so that I bought about 5 copies of the book and gave it to people I thought would be interested in it. Out of the 5 I know only 1 of them has read it, but for the others I know the knowledge is there for them when they need it and hopefully at some point they will pick it up and at that point they're mind will be open to understanding it. 

The other thing is you have to be the example to them to the point where people ask you, 'why do you seem so content or happy or comfortable with yourself', then you are ready to teach 

[Will]

I dont know if any of us should really be trying to give any advice at all.. I think its cool we get to share and swap ideas and stories but at the end of the day we all only have our own unique perspective that cant really be framed relevant for anyone else.. that would impose our judgement on their reality. remember these are just models and concepts. There are no truths here and we dont want to go down the track of saying what we do here is the correct or righteous path... 

Yeah there are definitely advantages to becoming enlightened.. But the universe as a whole really does not give a shit..

I think we discussed some great techniques for getting a message across.. And compelling people to this way of thinking..

I just dont think thats what we are here to do..

We are here to compel ourselves..

 

We can do that by sharing and comparing and seeing other perspectives..

What do you think..??

So we probably dont even need to talk at peoples levels.. at all..

 

Maybe we should do more listening???

 

 

We could listen to them and empathise and show compassion and let that give us fuel for our own journey..

We really dont need to help anyone else or intervene at all..

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Will

[abrakamowse]

I think is just consciousness talking to itself, when you talk with anyone, that's why I say whatever it comes to my mind. I don't see if the person is prepared or not, sometimes I feel not to do it and sometimes yes.

The other thing is that I agree that it doesn't matter if we don't understand at the moment, because we always tend to remember that kind of things, I remember as a teen I read a Zen book and for me was crazy. And now I am like... "ah... that's what the book was referring to". You see?

Now things that I didn't understand long time ago are beginning to make sense and they are like a support that I feel is helping me on going further on the seek of enlightenment.

And I tend to go a lot to Christian stuff and the Bible, and I really believe what the Bible says, that everything that we say has a purpose. It doesn't matter what we do or say, everything is under control by the universe, cosmos, consciousness, god, etc.

 

Isaiah 55:11 "so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."

Edited April 6, 2016 by abrakamowse

[Will]

Had a thought today to add onto my last thoughts..

Could we be giving advice or explaining things to people.. No...        None of this is true or real.. we dont want to artificially reinforce this way of thinking..

Could we express ourselves.... Yes of course, but only in so far as to give to others and the world what we want and what brings us joy or value

Could we make our opinion known? ... Yes of course.. There are many ways to do this.. we can relate to people at there level (as discussed above)

Could we wake people out of there slumber??  Why would you bother!! They will need to want to do it for themselves..

 

Now for the epiphany of the day!!!

What is a way of getting people to realise the crap they are in..??  

Push there comfort zone a bit by challenging them a bit.. Do it in a fun non threatening way, be playfull about it.. Sound familiar??

[abrakamowse]

Earn 1 million dollars in one week and tell them you made it because you were enlightened, that will do.

:-P