Can An Advice Be So Advanced It's Inefficient?

[Philip]

I've noticed a bunch of people on this forum who were posting really profound and high-consciouness comments containing deep insights about the nature of reality.

But sometimes, it seemed to me that their advice was too advanced for the person they were interacting with. 

The way I give advice is I try to go just a small step beyond where the person is already at. I try to give an advice that is not too high-consciousness and advanced, so that the person is wise enough to get it. But also, I try to make it high enough, so that the person has to change some of their mindsets in order to get there. Their mind has to stretch, but not so much that it breaks, if you see what I mean.

So what's your opinion?

• Should we unleash the full power of our wisdom without worrying too much about the other person's level of consciousness?
• Or should we try to adjust our speaking in order to be closer to the person's current level of advancement?

I'll summon @abrakamowse here. We discussed it and I want to hear his opinion

[abrakamowse]

My opinion has changed a bit now because of @Philip , I think we learn all the time from others and I think he's right sometimes is too much information for people who is beginning.

The thing is that I discovered those things in a traumatic way and shocking way too hehehe... so, I am like sometimes I go to try to shock others the same way I was shocked.

This thread is going to be awesome.

Edited April 4, 2016 by abrakamowse

[Henri]

@Philip @abrakamowse  I totally agree with you both! 

[abrakamowse]

I'm learning @Socrates  you are right. I was listening to mooji and I was thinking about that too.

He doesn't say some things, sometimes because he is afraid of giving some advice that will be then a concept to the student. And so, more difficult to grasp. I really don't thing I am at a high level, my ego probably thinks so hehehe...

I have other thing to add, I am not saying that I am on a high or low level but sometimes people feel like I give advice very advanced. I am really a bit new to all this, but I was searching since I was a kid. But without really understanding anything about Buddhism or other philosophies.

Now I came back and I feel that everything makes sense, but I really feel like a know nothing. I am really saying it, not because I read it or anything, It's how I feel honestly.

[Emerald]

16 minutes ago, Philip said:

I've noticed a bunch of people on this forum who were posting really profound and high-consciouness comments containing deep insights about the nature of reality.

But sometimes, it seemed to me that their advice was too advanced for the person they were interacting with. 

The way I give advice is I try to go just a small step beyond where the person is already at. I try to give an advice that is not too high-consciousness and advanced, so that the person is wise enough to get it. But also, I try to make it high enough, so that the person has to change some of their mindsets in order to get there. Their mind has to stretch, but not so much that it breaks, if you see what I mean.

So what's your opinion?

• Should we unleash the full power of our wisdom without worrying too much about the other person's level of consciousness?
• Or should we try to adjust our speaking in order to be closer to the person's current level of advancement?

I'll summon @abrakamowse here. We discussed it and I want to hear his opinion

I think that it's a good idea to recognize that a person may be in a different place. I know that I've given too much of a spiritual advice when a person needed a more practical solution. But I think it's a bit less hierarchical than that. Like a person needs a particular type of advice for their particular situation. So, don't give enlightenment advice to a person who needs to get out of a dysfunctional relationship. It's all about where the other person is. But I totally agree about giving a person the advice that they need, even if they will end up letting go of that advice later.

[Henri]

So now it`s the time for us to consider what advice we have to give to Leo.

To my opinion it is a logical evolutionary step that after the start up of this website slowly on the participants take over.

It`s the divine law so to speak.

I would suggest that the poor guy gets all the support he needs to finally fulfill his dream and goes living in the woods to become a genuine yogi. 

After twenty years he can come back and teach us about his found wisdom, while we can educate him about the latest social developments.

What do you say? 

@Emerald Wilkins @Philip @abrakamowse @Socrates

[Isle of View]

Good, important thread. Thanks @Philip.

 

If the advice is too high to the recipient, he can't grasp it. That's plain simple. Differnece in frequency. 

We all know this friend who gives advice only to look wise instead of really being of any help. Is it enlightened? 

 

Cheers, 
Chris

[Philip]

41 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

The thing is that I discovered those things in a traumatic way and shocking way too hehehe... so, I am like sometimes I go to try to shock others the same way I was shocked.

Did you talk about that somewhere else on the forum? Give us a link or just summarize it. I'm probably not the only one who's intrigued right now

 

[abrakamowse]

@Philip I am going to write it on my journal... I am still in the boring part hehehehe

And probably it was me who was shocked because I am a bit dumb 
Lol

 

I let you know when I write about it...  This is the link to my journal, right now it makes no sense yet hehehe... and it's a bit crazy but here it is. I let you know when I post the "shocking" part.

 

 

 

[Amplituda]

Very good topic, Philip!

I had the same opinion previously as most of you here in terms of understanding the person and providing advice on the level this person can understand. However, it was changed not a long time back.

I think advice and experienced should be shared from highest level we're in today without any adjustments. By that, you kind of sharing your reality and experience as of you're NOW and inviting to learn/experience of what you're today. If person isn't that advanced but open minded to advance concept he/she will grasp it pretty quick. On the other hand, there are folks who think they know everything and therefore can't grasp many different concepts. I found it's almost impossible to be productive with those people regardless which level they are in.

Anyhow, what most think is advance concept isn't really that difficult. It's very intuitive and straight forward. The difficulty comes from the fact that in most cases it goes against common knowledge/society and most people habits cause those habits are driven by society. Therefore, complexity comes when person need to change habits and some of those habits are coming from very early childhood. Therefore, most if us don't even question some concepts and think it's ridicules if someone have different opinion on one subject or another.

As long as you're open minded and agree to question absolutely everything to find truth, there will be no issues in levels of advancements.

Namaste

[abrakamowse]

@Henri  I think you hit the nail right on the head

[Philip]

59 minutes ago, Socrates said:

If youre giving the high advice its probably a sign youre nowhere near a level you think youre at because if you cant see the level the other pesons at or can relate to it then you havent passed through it. You cant skip levels. 

Just for the sake of argument, I'll use spiral dynamics as a reference. If you don't like it, please just bear with me anyway.

Let's say someone thinks he's Orange (level 5), gives an Orange advice but can't really relate to the Blue (level 4) person's situation. Are you saying this person is not Orange but rather Red (level 3) ? Or something along those lines ? Are you saying that the mere fact of not understanding a level automatically means you're not there yet ?

I don't have a definitive answer. But I surely had moments where I couldn't relate to someone because they seemed to be at an inferior level. Later, I learned to understand them and accept them a little more, but I still don't think I've ever been below them.

On the other hand, sometimes I learned to relate to someone I saw as inferior before, only to realize I was the inferior one in the situation. So I definitely think your argument is true most of the time.

But what do you think ?

[Philip]

1 hour ago, abrakamowse said:

I really don't think I am at a high level, my ego probably thinks so hehehe...

Hehe I totally get what you mean. Like I said on the other thread, I really am tempted sometimes to just burst in and just throw in the wisest sentence i can. Which I think would be along those lines:

"Maybe yes. Maybe no. Maybe both yes and no. Maybe neither yes nor no. Anyway, words make no sense. I'll just go and meditate now. See ya!"

But the problem is: Yes I'm able to make those "wise" words come out of my mouth. But it doesn't feel like I fully understand them yet. There's certainly a part of me that likes to think I'm already there, but the rest of me thinks it's pretty naive to think so.

It's really hard (or impossible) to be sure about what level of consciousness you're at. Maybe the only clue you have is the number of painful ego-shattering epiphanies you had in your life. And maybe that clue's not even as reliable as it looks. 

If the universe had a voice, I'm sure he would be laughing his ass off over my despair...

[Philip]

@Henri Dude ! What you said is exactly what I thought and didn't say out loud yet !

1 hour ago, Henri said:

So now it`s the time for us to consider what advice we have to give to Leo.

Just this morning I had the idea of creating a topic designed to ask @Leo Gura about his own doubts. His own struggles. His own blind spots. It seems like he never makes himself vulnerable enough for us to try and help him. Maybe that's his greatest problem. Also maybe it's necessary for building a viable self-help community. I don't know hehe, but such a thread would surely be quite interesting if Leo dares to play along...

1 hour ago, Henri said:

I would suggest that the poor guy gets all the support he needs to finally fulfill his dream and goes living in the woods to become a genuine yogi. After twenty years he can come back and teach us about his found wisdom, while we can educate him about the latest social developments.

I already talked about this here:

 

The way you said it is pretty awesome. Now I'm a transhumanist, so it's obvious to me that he shouldn't spend the next several decades in a cave. Because I believe humanity will change in such a fundamental and radical way, and if we don't have strong, moral and noble leaders like Leo to guide us, the chances of a robot invasion wiping out humanity are too high. But I think we can create a positive technological singularity if we can elevate our level of consciousness high enough and fast enough. And Leo's teachings are the best tool I found for that purpose yet.

[jjer94]

Quote

Should we unleash the full power of our wisdom without worrying too much about the other person's level of consciousness?

Or should we try to adjust our speaking in order to be closer to the person's current level of advancement?

In my opinion, the "full power of your wisdom," if you are truly wise, includes the ability to cater to others' levels of consciousness. Wisdom is not just the knowledge that you know nothing, but it is also the ability to identify wrong-knowing in others. In other words, just from a few sentences the wise person can get a sense of what the other person assumes to be true and how seriously they take their words. From that, the wise person will naturally respond at the other person's level of ignorance. If someone were just learning about enlightenment, the wise person would not say right off the bat, "You are neither conscious nor unconscious, you are beyond all experience, the body nor mind exists, there is no external world. Wake up!" Based on the person's questions, they may just say, "Enlightenment is realizing who or what you really are. You can start by examining your belief that you are a separate self." 

The issue with this forum is that everyone's at a different level, and even if you reply to someone far down the pathless path, there will be others not as far along who will read what you wrote and be really confused. Imagine this were a forum about a Mario game and someone who's only on level 1 reads a post that says you have to get yoshi to eat a blue shell and fly into a secret door. However, that post was referring to level 2 and the person reading the post has no idea. So now that person is going crazy desperately searching for yoshi and the blue shell in level 1 when they'll never find them because they're in level 2! A bit of a long-winded analogy, but you get the point. 

[Philip]

@Socrates You didn't answer my question at all, by the way.

44 minutes ago, Philip said:

Are you saying that the mere fact of not understanding a level automatically means you're not there yet ?

But here you just explained the issue perfectly:

38 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Another prob is some people into psychology, others into spirituality. The 2 dont mix very well. Ive seen people asking how to deal with emotions while people sending advice on how to break into 3rd tier awareness. 

I would give you rep, but I spent the 30 ones I had today hehe.

Now just tell me if this is a good beginner ressource for learning about the AQAL Map:

http://www.kenwilber.com/Writings/PDF/IntroductiontotheIntegralApproach_GENERAL_2005_NN.pdf

If not, just give me your favorite one and I'll edit my comment accordingly.

[Henri]

@Philip The great thing about Wilber is that his work is always `work in progress`.

That`s why all his books are still on the market place.

To get a proper understanding I would recommend to read some of his books and not just a resource.

Just a warning; it`s addictive. 

 

[charlie2dogs]

People are not flocking to or becoming enlightened in droves, there has never been but a few out of each generation that actually awakened and self realized.  The number of people who will self realize in  your lifetime will only be a handful.   Most are not going to give up their programing, beliefs or identity.  The few that are awakening and have a desire to grow and learn is not all that many.  Most of them have no idea what self realization is, or what it isnt.  In any public forum you have every kind of people,  Those who want to grow and have a desire are looking for something they don't have, they need to be able to hear the reality of what real growth and self realization is about, without being watered down so everyone isnt offended.  Any time you are confronted with programing, false belief and ego, you are going to get resistance.  I am not trying to awaken the world, I speak to those who have begun to awaken, who have a desire for personal growth and have a real interest in self realization, and i will never withhold the reality of things to make those who are programed with a false belief system feel a little better.  In this kind of work you have the right to choose who you listen to, if its over your head and you dont want to try and grasp it, simply ignore it and keep going the way you are going until it no longer works for you, but dont try to stifle the ones who are actually doing it.  Only those who are ready for a thing are going to grasp it.  some are going to be offended because reality has a way of hurting peoples ego.  If there is something you dont like about a post or its too advanced for you, you are not required to respond or complain about it, simply leave it and go on, someone who is ready will pick it up and learn from it.

[Emerald]

42 minutes ago, jjer94 said:

In my opinion, the "full power of your wisdom," if you are truly wise, includes the ability to cater to others' levels of consciousness. Wisdom is not just the knowledge that you know nothing, but it is also the ability to identify wrong-knowing in others. In other words, just from a few sentences the wise person can get a sense of what the other person assumes to be true and how seriously they take their words. From that, the wise person will naturally respond at the other person's level of ignorance. If someone were just learning about enlightenment, the wise person would not say right off the bat, "You are neither conscious nor unconscious, you are beyond all experience, the body nor mind exists, there is no external world. Wake up!" Based on the person's questions, they may just say, "Enlightenment is realizing who or what you really are. You can start by examining your belief that you are a separate self." 

The issue with this forum is that everyone's at a different level, and even if you reply to someone far down the pathless path, there will be others not as far along who will read what you wrote and be really confused. Imagine this were a forum about a Mario game and someone who's only on level 1 reads a post that says you have to get yoshi to eat a blue shell and fly into a secret door. However, that post was referring to level 2 and the person reading the post has no idea. So now that person is going crazy desperately searching for yoshi and the blue shell in level 1 when they'll never find them because they're in level 2! A bit of a long-winded analogy, but you get the point. 

I love the Mario analogy.  If you don't mind my asking is the 94 in your name referring to your birth year? If so, I'm even more thoroughly impressed by the wisdom and maturity of your perspective. But even if you're older than that, I'm still impressed. 

[Consept]

A lot of the gurus I listen to Mooji, sadhguru etc I always get the feeling that they want to just unleash the full force of their wisdom but they always hold back so the person understands. It's quite funny cos I imagine they're thinking 'just get it!!'. The thing is the ultimate thing to understand is just acceptance and so the actual words are very simple but it feels like it almost needs to get complicated for people to understand it, because they can't accept that it would be that easy. 

So regardless of the words used it has to make sense to who you're saying it to otherwise what's the point, that doesn't mean that the person shouldn't do a bit of work to get to understand it.