Idealism vs Solipsism

[How to be wise]

The writer ‘Bernardo Kastrup’ says that between Idealism and Solipsism, the latter is just too sceptical. But isn’t that the more correct one? The more skeptical we are (the less beliefs we’re willing to entertain) the more correct the theory should be, right? What do you guys think about this.

[Shin]

Stop asking someone else what you should think, and start thinking by yourself.

[How to be wise]

@Outer The only problem I have with idealism is that you must assume that other people are conscious as well. But from my direct experience, how can I be sure that other people are themselves conscious. You can never really know if that’s true or not. For all I know, everybody else is just faking consciousness but actually are just walking zombies. That’s a belief, which if proven wrong, will bring the whole of idealism crashing down. If the first floor of a building collapses, so will the rest of the building.

Edited November 1, 2018 by How to be wise

[Shadowraix]

"There is absolute truth and relative truth, beware of half truths" - The Kyballion

[How to be wise]

@Outer Yes, but how can you know that other people are themselves aware. I’m sure you don’t believe that inanimate objects like stones are aware. In the same way, how can you be sure that other people are aware.

[Rilles]

Who is the ”you” that is conscious? Can you locate the conscious ”you”? 

Have you ever noticed that you are experienced in the same consciousness as other people? Awareness sees you and sees others in the same field, so why would you exist and not others.

Dont assume consciousness is something YOU have, thats a trap.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Rilles

[Superfluo]

@How to be wise Some questions to stimulate new reflections and ideas: How do you know inanimate objects aren't aware? Maybe they are a lot more aware than humans, but we don't have an organ to perceive that. Maybe they have a consciousness, but we don't even see that they have one because maybe we can't understand or perceive it.

For example, there are animals that communicate through body language, and the same species of animals understand each other. What if maybe rocks and crystals communicate with what we perceive as the reflection of what we call light, and we are too "short-sighted" to understand that?

From a spiritual perspective: enlightened people tell you that everything is pure being, that all is one. So if you have a consciousness, even inanimated objects have consciousness.

 

Now let's get to people. I don't understand if what you mean with "conscious people" is "people that grasp the meaning of reality, life and stuff" or "people that I perceive are separate from me and therefore, as I have a consciousness, they have one too".

If you mean the former, I don't understand why if you are idealist you must assume that. However, all people are conscious but the majority of them has their consciousness dimmed, blurred, tarnished. That's because of how they grew up and how they live their life.

If you mean the latter, I suggest watching Leo's video "Why Brains Do Not Exist", I'm not the most reliable person to explain it. But I'll try. I'll explain only the key points in my reasoning so that if you want to know why I say what I say you are more inclined to research that.

So: Reality is everything you perceive. Do you perceive something that doesn't exists? For example do you see, or hear, or taste, or touch, or smell a phoenix? No. You could say "But I can think of it!" But it's not a direct experience of reality, in fact most people don't think that phoenixes are real. Then, your sensorial organs are linked to your brain through nerves. Materialistically, when you perceive something the nerves produce chemical reactions and electric impulses that arrive to the brain. And it's the brain that processes the information and puts them together to produce reality (think about the fact that our eyes perceive light upside down, but our brains fix our perception, otherwise we would see upside down). So we could say that perception is a thought. But where does the thought takes place? In the brain, you could say. But when you say "in the brain" you think of a brain, you think of a squishy thing. But then: It's your thought that's in the brain? But then, the brain is a thought... How do you "solve" this paradox/misconception/fallacy? You could say that thoughts take place in the mind, and the mind is in your brain (even if how mind and brain relate is difficult to explain, but let's put this aside). But again, "the mind" is also a thought. So the mind is inside of itself? How do you manage to solve this? You can't if you still follow materialistic conceptions and ideas. Let's ask ourselves some questions: "If I'm not my body, because the body is a perception/thought, and I'm not my thoughts because I'm not a thought (be careful of this second assumption: thoughts arise and fade away, so you might think you are not a thought. But you could think that maybe the "me" you think you are is the longest thought ever. Examine in depth that if you want), what am I? Do I not exist? But... but... I exist, I perceive this thing called reality!" Well, examine in depth this too.

Now the link with people: when you apply this whole process to you and also to the people, thinking that other people could do this reasoning, you can come to the conclusion that everything is just a perception that is perceived (I haven't written who of what does the action of perceiving for a reason). 

But let's make some steps back. We said at the beginning that your reality is in your mind . Then other people are in your mind. So their consciousness is a thought in your mind. But other people could make the same reasoning and say that you are a thought in their mind! The solution? Based on my experience and what I've learned (so don't take it for absolutely true), if reality is just perception that is perceived, there is not "me" or "you" that perceives. Everything is just perception. So you literally are other people, and even objects. And if you think you are conscious, then other people are conscious, because it's all one giant magical stuff. There is no "you vs. reality" or "you vs. other people" or "you vs. your thoughts". You don't exist.

 

I'm not sure if I explained it well enough, and if it's the answer you were looking for.

[How to be wise]

@Superfluo Jesus, how can I read such a long thread! Please summarise the main points.

[Superfluo]

@How to be wise

Some questions to stimulate new reflections and ideas: How do you know inanimate objects aren't aware? Maybe they are a lot more aware than humans, but we don't have an organ to perceive that. Maybe they have a consciousness, but we don't even see that they have one because maybe we can't understand or perceive it.

From a spiritual perspective: enlightened people tell you that everything is pure being, that all is one. So if you have a consciousness, even inanimated objects have consciousness.

Now let's get to people. I don't understand if what you mean with "conscious people" is "people that grasp the meaning of reality, life and stuff" or "people that I perceive are separate from me and therefore, as I have a consciousness, they have one too".

If you mean the former, I don't understand why if you are idealist you must assume that. However, all people are conscious but the majority of them has their consciousness dimmed, blurred, tarnished. That's because of how they grew up and how they live their life.

If you mean the latter, I suggest watching Leo's video "Why Brains Do Not Exist", I'm not the most reliable person to explain it. But I'll try. I'll explain only the key points in my reasoning so that if you want to know why I say what I say you are more inclined to research that.

So: Reality is everything you perceive. Perception happens inside the brain. You could say it is a thought. But "the brain" is also a thought. So it's the thought that's inside the brain, or it's the brain that's inside the thought? The same conclusion arises if you reflect upon the thought-mind relationship. Personal conclusion (also told by Leo in his videos and by some spiritual teachers): "You" as a personality/identity/being don't exist. Everything is just perception that is perceived. There is not "me" or "you" that perceives. So there's no distinction between "you" and "everybody else". So if you think you are conscious, everything is conscious. Everything. Even rocks, houses, trees, cars. You are all that exists. Actually there is no "you". There is only being that has different masks.

This is a solipsist point of view I think, yet we still can say people are conscious.