HELP!! Are men naturally Poly-amorous?

[Peace and Love]

HELP!!

Hi Everyone,

I recently met this guy that I'm interested in dating and he recommended that I read this book (that is also on Leo's book list) called Sex at Dawn.  He seems to be convinced that men really are not naturally supposed to have monogamous relationships.  I'm not so convinced that this is true at all. I feel that we are more evolved spiritually and moving away from just being "intelligent apes" with a biological desire to mate with as many of the opposite sex for reproductive purposes.  We have consciousness, and we can choose to create our own reality based off our emotions, and have the potential for enlightenment, compared to apes, chimps, bonobos, etc.

*It's not so much that he doesn't want to have a monogamous relationship, but i think he's more concerned about the possible health benefits from a man being poly-amorous. 

He believes that there are some biological benefits from men being poly-amorous.  Like for example there is a supposed study that says that a man's testosterone level rises while having sex with a woman during ovulation (verses not ovulating).  Thus if the testosterone level rises you're less likely to get prostate cancer. And there is also a different study that says that the more sex you have the less likely a man gets prostate cancer.  Thus the more women you have sex with that are ovulating not only are you procreating but is natures protection for a man not to have health issues.  I'm not sure how much is true, but I'm trying to clear up any misunderstandings.   I've yet to see studies online that say anything about there being any detrimental effects from a man having sex with a women not ovulating, or being in a monogamous relationship with a healthy sex life.  But if there is....I want to know!  

He feels that monogamous relationships were created by religious institutions for control and repress sex. As sexual energy gives people a tendency to have a lot of power.  But I could also see how a monogamous relationship could also not be religious but by personal choice of wanting to be together, and a relationship  where the two romantically involved people come together to evolve spiritually.  We can choose to make our own boundaries and guidelines with relationships.

I've also met men that are not poly-amorous in nature at all and stated that they aren't. So I'm just trying to get a better understanding of this. 

Has anyone read this book: Sex at Dawn?

 

[SFRL]

I have nothing against Poly people per se.

But he is bullshitting you. Bottom line is he wants to bang other women besides you. 

You are either onboard with that Poly lifestyle or you are not. 

I don't think it would be for me. 

[Peace and Love]

@Leo Gura

What are your thoughts on this?  I've started reading the book, Sex at Dawn.  Maybe you can make a video about it?

[Peace and Love]

@SFRL - I don't think poly is for me either.  I personally know people that are Poly and have received notes from them on a Poly Seminar that they have attended and it says that Poly is a choice and not for anyone.  It didn't mention any kind of health benefits from being Poly.

[SFRL]

@Peace and Love I have talked online to Poly women, BDSM women, Swinger women, but never actually met up with them. 

From my limited experience talking to those people it seems like they are often oversensitive to certain things. There seem to be a lot of 'unwritten rules' to navigate. Sometimes even written rules in the form of contracts. 

I am just not interested in that. Plus I am not interested in anyone banging my chicks. 

Not saying people should not do it. It's just not for me. 

I think you are a sexual person. I am a sexual person. Just saying from one sexual person to another, you don't need to do that if it's not you. 

[RichardY]

Men have a higher sex drive then women, but are generally better able to restrain it. Sleeping with multiple partners was often a death sentence in the distance past, STD, high infant mortality, I remember seeing a tv documentary about a Roman Bathhouse in Syria, that had thousands of baby skeletons in the catacombs. Syphilis I think incapacitated more soldiers then actual combat did, in the modern world. RISK vs REWARD.

I think with men they can be more easily destroyed then broken, otherwise they are not men, and defeat in battle usually meant death anyway.

Sleeping with multiple women was often considered effeminate, especially if they were slaves. Even says so at the beginning of Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. With Genghis khan they were "brides". Some cultures did and do permit more wives for a warrior caste.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by RichardY

[Shadowraix]

As someone who is polyamorous I think the poly viewpoint comes from realizing that your capacity to love is not restricted to one person and that sexual exclusivity is a "rule" that is only valid and meaningful if you make it so. 

I realized I only cared about exclusivity and some kind of twisted "ownership" side of relationships because thats what I was taught relationships are. Why should an intimate relationship be broken simply because they aren't the only one I am intimate with? Is it the desire to feel special? The desire to have the person all to yourself? If I drop those notions I then see the poly viewpoint. I see it as being less attached to things in a regard.

I think a lot of the people who end up cheating on their partner have some kind of polyamorous feelings but it is demonized by society and you have to let go/question a lot of notions on how you want a relationship formed which can be difficult to do. 

Being polyamorous though managing multiple intimate relationships can be difficult so I have really never attempted it, I just recognize my capacity to be intimate with more than one partner. You can see this capacity among people/stories who love 2 people and have to decide between one of them. I'd say open relationships also go hand in hand with most polys as well.

As a society, I definitely think monogamy is the safer route to go. A lot of people still can't handle a monogamous relationship in a healthy manner, so I can't even begin to think how dysfunctional an open or poly relationship would be.

[RichardY]

Carl Jung had multiple partners. His wife had 5 or 6 children something like that, his wife was then kind of screwed because she obviously had the children to look after. Then he had an open relationship with his work colleagues. 

The dice are slightly loaded, so more dominant("Alpha") women will tend to have sons. More dominant men, daughters. I think because as people higher up in society tended to be male, having daughters is a more secure reproduction strategy, with the excess resources. If you're poor or have much restraint, having more daughters makes no sense in a resource poor environment. Women weren't considered people(or at least equivalent of sons) in Greece I've heard up until modern times.

But basically a guy will generally bang multiple women if he has the opportunity. But won't tolerate it the other way round, if you have value to him, at which point leave.

[Emerald]

I made this post a couple years ago, and I thought it would illuminate some things...

"Well, I think that this is very normal to want to have deep relationships but also to want the excitement of experiencing new partners sexually. It's two different areas of the brain and two different neurochemicals that contribute to both of these feelings. One is based in the reptilian brain (biological urges and instincts) and the other is based in the pre-frontal cortex (emotions, socialization, reason).

Now, even though the wanting to have sex with other people is more pronounced in men because more sexual variety equals more children and more genetic variety and more ways to pass on the genes. Sexual variety for women is biologically normal too but only after a few years when the child is well into toddlerhood. This is because, in nomadic times a woman could not both provide for a baby and care for a baby at the same time because human children are born premature because of our brain growth. So, the father needed to provide for the first few years otherwise the children would not survive and the woman would likely be in bad shape as well because of the intensity of the labor process. So, women have more biological impetus to settle with one partner. But once the three years is up, it benefits our gene pool for the woman to find another strong partner to mate with so that more genetic variety is added to the gene pool. For women, finding the best partner to make the children who are most fit to the environment is the most important. Women can only have so many children because it takes an entire 9 months to make one for them, and there's a lot of work and labor that goes into the process of making and caring for a child. So, the man has to be awesome. Men, on the other hand, can afford a few duds because they can have thousands of children in their lifetime. So, the biological impetus is to mate whenever possible. Both of these behaviors in men and women are what contributes to a biologically healthier species.

But because we have a very complex social structure and a complex emotional understanding, we live in a society where men and women have to co-exist and find ways to make these two conflicting drives work in order to create a healthy relationship, a healthy family, and a healthy society. We also all want to be treated fairly because of our ability to reason which comes from the pre-frontal cortex. So, our lower nature (instincts) often conflict with our higher nature (socialization). So, these two things must be reconciled. This is where the paradox comes into play, because (no matter what) there is no way to perfectly reconcile this paradox. The only thing to do is to accept that you will never have things exactly as you want them, because one drive will always cancel out parts of the other.

Your best bet for minimizing the issues caused by this paradox is to find an incredibly open minded partner who understands this paradox and doesn't shame you for wanting to have sex with other women. But to expect her to allow you to sleep with other women, while not being okay with her sleeping with other men will undoubtedly get in the way of her pre-frontal cortex's need for fairness. And even if she allowed it, deep down it would cause a barrier to intimacy (which your pre-frontal cortex wants) because of the unfairness aspect. This open-mindedness is hard to find because most people (especially women as I've noticed) buy into the idea of the fairytale romance of only being attracted to the person you're with, love at first sight, etc. These narrative only create more strain and shame around our most natural tendencies.

So, unfortunately, it is what it is. You just have to make room for this paradox and find a balance between relationship stability and satiating your baser desires. But we're all in the same boat. I have the same struggles and I'm a woman. My husband and I talk about this struggle too, although I enjoy listening to his fantasies more than he enjoys listening to mine. I'm a bit more open-minded in this way because human sexuality is fascinating to me. I love watching the conflict and tension at work. I also know that his desires for sexual variety doesn't mean that he doesn't love me or want to stay with me.

But, you can also change your relationship to your desires, so that they don't run you. I think that you seem to be very self-honest about this dilemma where few people are able to be. So, continue with self-honesty but make it more radical still. All suffering comes from illusion. So, you may not be able to change the way that you're wired on the physical level. Biology is biology. But you can transcend the ego so that you're not buying into "I can only be fulfilled by having things the way that I want them" stories."

[aurum]

@Peace and Love

Lol some of the things he is saying might be accurate. But let's be real, what he really wants is to fuck other girls.

The reason @SFRL and I can say this with such confidence is because literally every guy is like this.

I'll put it to you this way: there is no guy who looks at Dan Bilzerian's Instagram and doesn't have some part of them that thinks it's awesome. The only difference is whether they admit it or lie and repress it.

Does that mean men aren't capable of monogamy? No, I wouldn't go that far. There are definite cons of always seeing new girls, so monogamy can definitely be appealing at times as well. Particularly if a guy has already had a period of being very sexually active and is just kind of "over it".

[Elysian]

There's a lot of poly people in the circle I hang out in. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, it's just a different view point on sex/intimate relationships. It can become really complex, and there are some people who genuinely seem better off for it. Some just want something that maybe the partner they're with simply can't provide.

But I think for most, including women, it's just about having sex with whoever they want without as big of a stigma. My circle is very green and so this is accepted among the group, but even still most don't identify as poly.

Since he's trying to convince you with all these studies and books, he wants you to become something you're not, and that probably just means one of his friends with benefits. Sure some poly people maintain multiple relationships with the other aspects of intimate relationships, but lets be honest; how many serious relationships could one person really handle?

The fact that you're unsure about it means that it's not for you right now. I think the most likely way poly relationships work is 2 poly people getting together and coming to some sort of arrangement, not 1 poly person converting a person who favors monogamy.

If you do decide to follow through, get ready to face a lot of problems you haven't had to run into yet. Jealousy/insecurities coming up at a level you've never seen, not having him around all the times you want him to be there, possibly having to get along with the others, explaining it to family and friends, etc.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Elysian
Grammar

[Your place at Heart]

Humans are polyamorous species just like their primate cousins. There are males who are polyamorous and males who are monogamous as much as the females. Some female desire one partner and another one is not enough for her. Religions has distorted this nature by forcing monogamy on all humans, but monogamy can give equal chance to everyone and Religions served as stabilizing factor for society to move up the spiral. You have to be honest with yourself, what do you want? Monogamy or polygamy or polyamory? If you are truly repelled by polyamory or polygamy, leave your partner and find another partner who will commit for you only and there are amble of men who want one girl only. Note: monogamous men can become polyamorous if they are sexually neglected by their partners/spouses same to females as well.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Your place at Heart

[Hellspeed]

Only dormant men are polygamous. In the history of civilization, humanity was usually monogamous until the right-hand/patriarchal path generations arrived, this was implemented by the great empires or the world. So thousands of years ago humanity was way more awakened than now. 

[SgtPepper]

Monogamy feels more right for me. I do think there is something special about the conventional male to female marriage.

I also don't think of marriage as ownership. It's a serious agreement to be life partners. 100% trust. Making babies and taking care of those babies. It's about responsibility and it does grow your ability to love.

I doubt health benefits are his real main motivation.

People just want different things and different things work for different people. There are polygamous marriages and it has existed historically, Islam and mormonism has it.

 

[Forestluv]

I’m curious why he feels the need to justify his desire for poly relations. 

If poly is one’s orientation, then go for it. Have good communication, get tested and keep it consensual with everyone involved. There’s no need to make up stories on Evolution to rationalize it.

And I bet there are 20+ things things he could do to improve his health that are higher up than banging a harem of women. 

[Girzo]

Being polyamorous as in having long-term relationship with multiple people is unpractical nowadays.

We are naturally inclined in various degrees to cheat, but this doesn't equal polyamory.

[Girzo]

@Serotoninluv I am thinking in scale of the whole society, where we have 50/50 women to men ratio. If people started switching to poly en masse, then we would have a lot of emotional turmoil, legal issues, etc. It's a complex problem and I don't really want to tackle it right now.

For sure, there will be a niche of people who can make it work. But saying it's natural is an over-statement. It's more like a new invention that we are still evolving to. Most people are not loving or accepting enough to make it work.

[YaNanNallari]

On 10/29/2018 at 11:38 PM, Peace and Love said:

But I could also see how a monogamous relationship could also not be religious but by personal choice of wanting to be together, and a relationship  where the two romantically involved people come together to evolve spiritually.  We can choose to make our own boundaries and guidelines with relationships.

Yes. It is a choice. A man can be polygamous, be attracted to multiple women, yet still choose to have a special relationship with only one. But it doesn't mean that that man wouldn't be polygamous by nature. Is a man polygamous by nature or not? I'd say yes, but in a way it is trivial question.

The reasons, the studies don't matter that much. You see that there is bullshit in his reasoning, that is fine. There is bullshit in your claims too. That's ok. The real issue here is something a bit more underlying, which you can discover for yourself. Whether he is willing to discover or not, I do not know.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Girzo said:

@Serotoninluv But saying it's natural is an over-statement. It's more like a new invention that we are still evolving to.

That which appears is natural. 

[Forestluv]

27 minutes ago, YaNanNallari said:

Yes. It is a choice. A man can be polygamous, be attracted to multiple women, yet still choose to have a special relationship with only one. But it doesn't mean that that man wouldn't be polygamous by nature. Is a man polygamous by nature or not? I'd say yes, but in a way it is trivial question.

The thread is based on polyamory, not polygamy.