The feeling of 'me'

[Preetom]

58 minutes ago, cetus56 said:

@Blissout @Preetom  Nisargadatta may have used "I am" interchangeably.

One quote is: "stay in the I am and in doing so trancend it".

And in another quote:  Do not bother about anything you want, or think, or do, just stay put in the thought and feeling, ‘I am’, focusing ‘I am’ firmly in your mind. All kinds of experience may come to you – remain unmoved in the knowledge that all perceivable is transient and only the ‘I am’ endures. 

This totally makes sense! I remember Stephen Wolinsky (Maharaj's direct student) saying in a video that Maharaj told Mulapatan(the usual translator in satsangs) that he didn't actually like the book ''I AM THAT'' as it was published. Why? Because all his answers in that book were exclusively tailored and provided to that exact questioner at his/her place at their present spiritual understanding then.

But almost all readers misunderstood and took all the answers as the unchanging biblical quotes. That's why all this confusion and intellectual nit picking started . The same I AM is defined in like 100 fashions in 100 different answers. We must not forget that these answers were for that specific questioner only. They are not meant to be taken as blind faith.

1) When a spiritual newbie came to him whose mind is all the place, Maharaj would tell him to FOCUS on the thought/feeling I AM. Instead of running after thousands of objects outside, the devotee would then actively think about one object I AM and turn inwards. This is the very definition of Concentration meditation. Here you've deliberately objectified the I AM and focusing on it to still the money mind.

2) When a sufficiently matured devotee would ask him a question, he would point to the formless I AM as the pure witness that can't be objectified. He would say, stay as the I AM and let go of all things.

3) In the final stages, he would give pointers to show that this very I AM really is not personal. That personhood was an illusion from the first place! Right there, that same knowing-being is discovered as the impersonal God's Being.

@Blissout Hope you see what I'm trying to convey

Edited October 29, 2018 by Preetom

[Shin]

1 hour ago, Preetom said:

34 minutes ago, Preetom said:

Let's not see it from a narrow perspective my friend. Let's sort this out experientially!

If I AM is an object you can 'focus' on, tell me from your own experience what are objective qualities of this I AM? Is it a color, a sound, a subtle sensation? Does it have a specific pinpoint location? Tell me. If you can't find any of these qualities, then why are you declaring I AM as another object? Notice that whatever you point to as I AM is not the I AM but I AM THIS.

If I AM was purely an object like lets say the sensations in the head, then Maharaj would advice to firmly focus on the sensations in the head. That would be a concentration meditation. But he repeatedly said that, Subtract the THIS and THAT and only stay as the I AM.

From my experience, I AM is a pure witnessing state. This I AM cannot be objectified in any way. When Maharaj says that the I AM needs to be transcended or ''In the Absolute state I don't even know that I AM'', he means that by staying as that pure subject I AM in an unbroken fashion, at one point you realize in a flash that this very 'knowiness' or I AM is not something you personally own. Right at that moment, You discover the I AM as the impersonal Universal Consciousness, the Only Consciousness there ever was and ever will be. That is the absolute state where the last vestiges of personhood is given up.

That's why I AM or pure witnessing is the direct doorway to Absolute. By staying with the I AM unbrokenly, you discover it's Truth.

I am elaborating all this over and over again because I find from my personal experience that creating more and more layers in the Subject or I AM just makes the witnessing process more complex and inefficient. The mind runs into intellectual land to make sense of things by objectifying the subject, witness behind witness behind witness....I hope you get my point.

Why not just take only one pure subject, the formless I AM and just watch...carefully eliminating everything the I AM is not...until the I AM reveals itself as the Absolute?

 

 

 

 

lol Imagine telling that to someone who didn't do some serious meditation/inquiry

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Shin

[Preetom]

56 minutes ago, Blissout said:

Ugh.

The whole point is to land on pure I.

You can do that by bypassing the I AM (which is the root of the ego I) again, both nisargadatta and ramana mentioned this. Ramana calls it the i-thought. Robert Adams talks about it, Rupert Spira talks about it. Rupert spira tells you to ignore the I AM and go directly to objectless awareness which is not AN OBJECT. I AM is an object appearing in awareness.

OR you can put attention on the I AM until it dissolves which will reveal the PURE I.

Do some research!

The feeling of a ME the feeling of an I is the I AM, it's an object in awareness. many can't go directly to pure awareness so they meditate on the I AM.

I find it very easy to land directly on pure awareness which is objectless... in the pure I there is no I AM object.

If you can't go directly to pure awareness that is your problem. but know the difference.

@Blissout I'm not interested in an intellectual debate here.Trust me, I've done enough intellectual research. Please just look at your experience.

You're making a distinction between I AM and PURE I. But you can't tell me even one objective quality about either of them. Why is that? It is precisely because they are the one and SAME thing. Just named differently on various occasions. Why complicating things by giving the same thing many different names?

Tell me something. That 'knowingness' of I AM and PURE I, are they 2 different 'Knowingness'? Are there 2 Consciouness in your experience right now? Or is it ever the same, one Consciousness?

Enlightenment is discovering that there NEVER WAS anything called a separate egoic Consciousness or presonal Consciousness. It was always the Absolute; God's Infinite Consciousness. The ego illusively took ownership of that. That's the very dilemma!! By staying with that only knowingness, you discover it's Truth! Realize that what you are persistently calling PURE I, I'm calling the same thing as I AM  

Leo put it so beautifully,'' You've taken God and recontextualized God as you. That's the very function of devil/ego''.

This Unique state, it is the final stage towards Enlightenment. Concentration practices on objects are done to still the monkey mind to a degree. Then Witnessing happens. It's just being aware of an objectless aware presence. This simple, ever present knowing of I AM. It has many many names. Let me list some for ya!

1) Practicing the presence of God in Christian mystical tradition

2) Staying as I AM by Nisargadatta Maharaj

3) Self Inquiry by Ramana Maharshi

4) Being aware of being aware by Rupert Spira

5) Resting as Awareness by Adyashanti

6) Witnessing Meditation by OSHO

7) Seeing God's Face everywhere in Sufi Traditions

8) Right Mindfulness in Buddhism

9) Self Remembering by PD Ouspensky

10) The PARVASTHA or After Effect Poise in Kriya Yoga Tradition

11) Direct Mind Experience by Richard Rose

12) The Luminous Center

13) Headlessness as promoted by our very own Faceless and Jack River  

14) Neti Neti at it's Original form by Advaita Vedanta

THESE ARE ALL THE ONE AND SAME THING. IT IS THE DIRECT, EFFORTLESS STATE. IT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU DO. It may seem like something you're doing at first, but upon clear seeing you find them as non-doing. They are just different names for the same things. Our goal here is not to complicate stuff but seeing the common thread that leads to Truth. 

Enlightenment doesn't happen from any Doing.You do the doing to still your mind and purify yourself up to a degree. The jump happens from the Non Doing (Objectless Being-Knowing) state.

I am done LOL

 

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Preetom

[Blissout]

What I am saying is not intellectual, it's my experience.

But what can I do that you can't experience the difference between an object and pure awareness?

From my experience when there is objectless awareness there is no sense of ME, I, a sense of you there, it's objectless duh!

There is no center, the awareness is vast without any limits, certainly not some place in the physical body.

All there is is peace. you are peace.

I AM is just like any object such as the breath or a mantra.

Many people confuse the I AM for pure awareness.

The I AM is like a thin wall. watch it long enough and it will dissolve leaving the pure I which is different in nature.

Also if you have this sense of an observer that still is an object in the mind. go directly to pure awareness and even that feeling/sense won't be there.

 

 

[Shin]

45 minutes ago, Preetom said:

@Blissout 

This Unique state, it is the final stage towards Enlightenment. 

 

 

Literally me 

I'm so lazy 

 

[Charlotte]

4 hours ago, Jack River said:

I call this unconsciousness/nonbeing

Elaborate please jack

4 hours ago, Preetom said:

It's the same story for every human. These sensations behind the eyes, in the chest, a subtle hazy self image of the body are some of the most persistent identifications where Consciousness is trapped in. Over time, layers of such feelings will get revealed. You must keep on inquiring and disidentifying. Sometimes written inquiry helps a lot (for me at least!). Externalize that sensation behind the eyes. Ask yourself, is that sensation literally me?? Does this sensation have likes and dislikes, have an age, a history, makes decision, craves certain objects? When you frame it like this, you see very quickly how ridiculous it all sounds and yet we are so gullible that we believe it as us.

Yeah, definitely can relate. I also have this hazey image of my nose which I feel the 'me' resonates with a lot. 

Yes the sensation (behind the eyes) resonates with my name a lot. This actually popped up during self inquiry. 

Yeah it's absolutely mental isn't it! I was talking with Mum this evening and she's going to give it a go herself this evening  (she's done 'work' like this in the past).

4 hours ago, Preetom said:

Also as a final note, do not make that I AM thing too complex. Trust me, I tried to wrap my brain around it for several years. It was all futile. This is NOT an intellectual or clever thing. This is a very personal, alive, feeling based inquiry. You can't cleverly bypass anything or rationalize away something cleverly. This will only make the process longer and longer. 

I honestly don't. The form of self inquiry for myself is a very honest no bullshit approach. 

4 hours ago, Preetom said:

Just keep on honestly looking, and upon clear seeing dissolve all the 'me-ness' attached to various objects. That pure subject or witness can't be touched or visualized in any way. Just burn all the unquestioned identifications and Consciousness will shine in it's purity as your deathless self. In fact it is already the case! Only those persistent little sensations behind the eyes are preventing you from seeing it. Witness them with loving curiosity and see how they melt right before you! 

All the best. If you're diligent, this process will sky rocket soon  

 

I certainly will. The reason I doubted my approach is because of self delusions, I take that very seriously. 

I can't thank you enough for your advice and info dude. Massively massively appreciate it ??

[Charlotte]

7 minutes ago, Shin said:

 

 

Literally me 

I'm so lazy 

 

Seems to be the story of your life this shin ? keep going dude! You know I'm always rooting for you bro ??

[Shin]

Just now, Charlotte said:

Seems to be the story of your life this shin ? keep going dude! You know I'm always rooting for you bro ??

 

The sad/funny thing is that I'm pretty sure that if I take a full week where I just stay in this state from morning to evening it would be done.

But noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, everytime a good excuse 

[Preetom]

31 minutes ago, Blissout said:

What I am saying is not intellectual, it's my experience.

But what can I do that you can't experience the difference between an object and pure awareness?

From my experience when there is objectless awareness there is no sense of ME, I, a sense of you there, it's objectless duh!

There is no center, the awareness is vast without any limits, certainly not some place in the physical body.

All there is is peace. you are peace.

This is exactly what I'm naming as I AM. Being aware of being aware. You're calling it PURE I. It's the same thing. Does it matter what you call it? There is not even any name in that state lol

31 minutes ago, Blissout said:

The I AM is like a thin wall. watch it long enough and it will dissolve leaving the pure I which is different in nature.

Also if you have this sense of an observer that still is an object in the mind.

The moment you objectify the pure I AM, it's no longer the I AM. It becomes I AM 'THIS'. An object.\

The moment you say I AM is a 'thin wall', it has already become I AM THIS.

You're basically calling I AM and I AM THIS the same thing. You've objectified both of them. 

The dilemma we're having here is a language dilemma haha

Edited October 29, 2018 by Preetom

[Charlotte]

@Shin Because you don't truly want to? 

[Preetom]

1 minute ago, Shin said:

The sad/funny thing is that I'm pretty sure that if I take a full week where I just stay in this state from morning to evening it would be done.

But noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, everytime a good excuse 

A breakthrough comes from this retreat like setting. You may need several of them. Or you will have to wait many years (10-12) for the witness to stabilize naturally, slowly in your daily life..until the shift happens. This is what happened to Shanmugam. Dude had his Enlightenment experience before 20, but finally the search was over in his 30s. All this time he was witnessing and slowly disidentifying.

But sooner or later it is bound to happen if you really experiencially understand the objectless Consciousness state. Thats the good news!  

[Forestluv]

10 hours ago, Charlotte said:

During self inquiry I was focusing on the rock solid feeling of 'me'. This feeling is where 'I' ultimately reside. Behind the eye's somewhere.

I noticed what makes me feel like it's 'me' is the feeling of my lips and cheeks. But it's also a very stubborn type of feeling. I continued to question, "So 'I' am a feeling?" I moved my lips slightly and questioned "So am I my lips?" As thoughts arose I noticed they reside (again another feeling) somewhere at the top of my head, so I questioned (as I brought the feeling of 'me' back) "Is the feeling of 'me' experiencing the thoughts?". This went on for some time until the feeling of 'me' dissolved and 'I' seemed to go to a place of completely nowhere. There was nothing, forever. 

Should I continue this form of self inquiry or am I deluding oneself?

To me, this sounds like you are reaching the "observer + object" stage or the "I am" stage.

I would focus on loosening the identification/attachment with these feelings and thoughts. Keep returning to the observer - just the "I am" without adding anything extra to "I am". For me, I was eventually able to get more space between the "I am" and the object.

[Preetom]

59 minutes ago, Charlotte said:

I certainly will. The reason I doubted my approach is because of self delusions, I take that very seriously. 

I can't thank you enough for your advice and info dude. Massively massively appreciate it ??

As long as you're questioning all 'me-ness' everywhere you find, you're doing just fine

As an 80/20 rule, I can share a secret that worked superbly for me. I'm sure you have some background mindfulness all throughout the day due to your clean living and commitment to this work. 

The secret is this. Do not just restrict your self Inquiry practice just within that 1 hour sit (or how long you may have been doing formally). Keep doing that. But also, all throughout the day, just 'watch yourself'. Just stop taking yourself as an object. 

Lets say you're brushing your teeth. Your attention is constricted behind the eyes as the sense of 'me-ness'. Just gently ask ''What is it that knows this sensation? Is that also a sensation?'' and see how your attention gently relaxes and starts being aware without any rigid object right that moment.

In this manner, all throughout the day, stop believing yourself as an object. If you keep this up, trust me within just few weeks you'll start feeling HEADLESS

It will boost your self inquiry practice sooo much. If you can unwire ''I am this body'' belief and sensations, you've done 90% enlightenment work. You only need to stay in that conceptless aware presence.

Within weeks and months, this will be automatic! You wouldn't even need to ask any question. Just your loving curious attention will melt all thoughts and constrictions on the spot and make you aware of your being. Attention turned on attention. Being aware of being aware. Totally a non doing practice once it's up and rolling!

Today I did like 3 hours of Engineering maths while being aware. It becomes that effortless and I know it's only 1%  The potential is unlimited!

Just forget the idea that you are an object. Question any thought/belief that tries to convince you're an object. Your attention will loose all stickiness over time...just resting on itself.

this 20% investment will give you the 80% of the results. All the best  

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Preetom

[Shin]

53 minutes ago, Charlotte said:

@Shin Because you don't truly want to? 

Now that I had a bit of time to think,

It's mostly fear.

1 year ago when I was meditating several hours per day, I had to face 5 times death, both in my dreams and in "reality".
I can't really explain this, but I knew that If I let go at those precise moment I would die for good.

After this, I stopped meditating that much, but at that time I just rationalize this by having other things to do.

 

[Preetom]

2 minutes ago, Shin said:

Now that I had a bit of time to think,

It's mostly fear.

1 year ago when I was meditating several hours per day, I had to face 5 times death, both in my dreams and in "reality".
I can't really explain this, but I knew that If I let go at those precise moment I would die for good.

After this, I stopped meditating that much, but at that time I just rationalize this by having other things to do.

The cat got some existential pokes and decided to put on a sunglass and stargaze at the luminous cosmos? 

[Shin]

17 minutes ago, Preetom said:

The cat got some existential pokes and decided to put on a sunglass and stargaze at the luminous cosmos? 

What are you trying to say ?

That I'm too much of a coward ? 

[Preetom]

3 minutes ago, Shin said:

What are you trying to say ?

That I'm too much of a coward ? 

You're a cat? I thought I was talking about the cat

PS: The actual moment of Enlightenment is not under your control. Every Enlightened fella acknowledges this. The best you can do, is to stay in a conceptless, dis-identified state and wait for the lightning to hit you 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Preetom

[Shin]

37 minutes ago, Preetom said:

You're a cat? I thought I was talking about the cat

PS: The actual moment of Enlightenment is not under your control. Every Enlightened fella acknowledges this. The best you can do, is to stay in a conceptless, dis-identified state and wait for the lightning to hit you 

I was pretty damn sure that I had a choice to make back then though. 

[Jack River]

4 hours ago, Charlotte said:

Elaborate please jack

I mean Nonbeing as in not seeing through the filter of experience. I call it unconscious or unawareness as in the quality of not being known or recognized from the storehouse of mind. It’s direct/not an experience. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Jack River

[here-now]

Just want to share one of my favorite Rupert Spira guided meditations here on exploring and dissolving the "me" feelings in the head, throat, chest, etc. (starting at 16:13):