Survival is the only game in town

[Echoes]

If you make "Happiness/Satisfaction/Peace" your direct priority without making it dependend to conditions such as life purpose/girls/contribution, the only thing left is the game of dying as late as possible (If you want to live) 

The only question is if conditionless happiness is reallly possible in this reality. Homelessness is no joke, working at a shitty job is no joke. That's why guys like Rupert Spira/Shunyamurti/Matt Kahn/Fred Davis and so on still keep selling "the truth" for money.

[TomDashingPornstar]

Why don't you make a worthwhile goal.  We aren't happy unless we are using our creative energy and striving towards something important.

[Echoes]

@TomDashingPornstar This thread was the result of trying to make a priority list for my life. But then I noticed that there can ever be only two priorities: Survival and Happiness. Why do you think that we can't be happy unless we fulfill conditions for that happiness?

[TomDashingPornstar]

@Echoes

We're programmed to have goals.  If we don't have goals, everything sucks.  It's called emptiness.

[Echoes]

@TomDashingPornstar Trying to run away from emptiness doesn't work. A goal can only cover it up because you project fulfillment of this empty feeling into an imaginary place that will never be reality

[RichardY]

If survival is conscious you can't be happy. If happiness is conscious, that might not be good for survival. 

Either there is some form of emergent chaos, and there is no metaphysical foundation to reality. Or God is the server of humanity and existence. The Book Ecclesiastes, refers to vanity/emptiness.

[TomDashingPornstar]

17 hours ago, Echoes said:

@TomDashingPornstar Trying to run away from emptiness doesn't work. A goal can only cover it up because you project fulfillment of this empty feeling into an imaginary place that will never be reality

Fine, be miserable.

[Preetom]

23 hours ago, Echoes said:

The only question is if conditionless happiness is reallly possible in this reality. Homelessness is no joke, working at a shitty job is no joke. That's why guys like Rupert Spira/Shunyamurti/Matt Kahn/Fred Davis and so on still keep selling "the truth" for money.

Be careful tho. Truth can't be sold. They are just offering a strategy towards it. They are charging money for that.

Just like a gym trainer charges you for showing you the way to have six packs abs. He/she can't literally sell the abs to you but they can certainly sell the method they invented or finetuned.

Nothing of true value can be bought or sold  

[Echoes]

@Preetom Well the truth must be already always the case. And they know it. "The greatest truth you can ever know - it will make you forever satisfied and solves all problems of life, we show you the way - for only 400$". They know that you already are the truth and still try to sell you the way to yourself. Every solid gym trainer is more legit than that

[Preetom]

@Echoes Well from personal experience I can tell you that I've wasted lots of money down the toilet and everytime the mind gave a blank check to permit it. But when it comes to Truth business, which has the potential to literally change my life, all sorts of justifications are created. Simply another distraction mechanism of the mind. Self deception at it's peak!

At least the ego will take the teaching seriously if it spent some real money for it! Noone really values free stuff. The deepest and most accurate enlightenment teaching are lying all over the internet for free. You can literally read them, sit on your couch until you become Enlightened. No one gives a shit. Only after spending few thousand dollars doing satsang, mantra, tantra, yantra, some karma, dharma etc. the ego starts taking it seriously.

4 minutes ago, Echoes said:

 "The greatest truth you can ever know - it will make you forever satisfied and solves all problems of life, we show you the way - for only 400$". 

That's obviously a scam. A real spiritual teacher is without an agenda. That's why true teachers are so rare.

[Preetom]

28 minutes ago, Echoes said:

They know that you already are the truth and still try to sell you the way to yourself. Every solid gym trainer is more legit than that

Following that same logic, you already have a potential 'six packs' in your abs. But still, your trainer will charge you for the instruction.

If a teacher truly is genuine and can seal the deal for you, then I don't see the problem of charging money.

Everyone is NOT the Truth. Not until they see it for themselves. Until they see it, that's just another belief to be discarded in the trash.

[Echoes]

@Preetomthe ego taking it seriously can never be a good thing. Thats the classic maharshi metaphor: "a thief will dress as a policeman and convince you to help catch the thief!"

Anyway, I just wanted to say with that statement that finding "the absolute truth of life" will not free anyone from the struggles and brutality of survival, since the ones who claim to have it are so obviously still in need for your money.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Echoes

[Echoes]

3 minutes ago, Preetom said:

Following that same logic, you already have a potential 'six packs' in your abs. But still, your trainer will charge you for the instruction.

If a teacher truly is genuine and can seal the deal for you, then I don't see the problem of charging money.

Everyone is NOT the Truth. Not until they see it for themselves. Until they see it, that's just another belief to be discarded in the trash.

The truth must always be the case or it's not the truth. You can't escape the truth. Even pretending to not know it and having to find it is the truth. And yes, even paying for something that you already are is the truth. So in the absolute sense there is no problem with that. 

 

[Preetom]

12 minutes ago, Echoes said:

@Preetomthe ego taking it seriously can never be a good thing. Thats the classic maharshi metaphor: "a thief will dress as a policeman and convince you to help you catch the thief!"

Anyway, I just wanted to say with that statement that finding "the absolute truth of life" will not free anyone from the struggles and brutality of survival, since the ones who claim to have it are so obviously still in need for your money.

Sorry if I sounded rude but actually I'm enjoying discussing it

with "the absolute truth of life", your life situations may not be changed overnight by fairy magic but the interpretations of ''struggle and brutality of survival'' sure as hell will change or just drop. Then see if your Reality changes with the change of  interpretations or not!

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Preetom

[Echoes]

@Preetom No rudeness perceived! 

The interpretation thing is a valid point. I'm not sure though if there is the one final 'happy ending' interpretation. 

[Preetom]

13 minutes ago, Echoes said:

The interpretation thing is a valid point. I'm not sure though if there is the one final 'happy ending' interpretation. 

Careful with that assumption. Buddha defined Enlightenment as the cessation of Suffering. Notice that he never said what it actually is, he only said what it is not. It was done so that no airy fairy cushy concept can be made around it. Same thing with the word Non-duality. 

'happy ending' is an affirmative concept made by our ego. Why do we assume that Enlightenment=Happy Ending? No genuine teaching will feed that belief into an aspirant

Edited October 29, 2018 by Preetom

[Echoes]

@Preetom 'Liberation' might be a more accurate concept. But if liberation really is possible it can only be from the desire of wanting to be alive. As long as the desire to survive is active the fear of death must be active also.

Only if I don't care anymore about cancer, aids, alzheimers, losing arms/legs, becoming blind/deaf, homelessness, losing everything, old age - can I be liberated. Then I don't need the term "enlightenment" anymore, I just need to acknowledge that all of this can literally happen and there is no escape. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Echoes

[Preetom]

18 minutes ago, Echoes said:

Only if I don't care anymore about cancer, aids, alzheimers, losing arms/legs, becoming blind/deaf, homelessness, losing everything, old age - can I be liberated. 

You're right. You have to look through these things and find your unborn, deathless, eternal nature. Only then you're really liberated. You transcend the very idea called survival because you see you never was born in the first place!

18 minutes ago, Echoes said:

Then I don't need the term "enlightenment" anymore, I just need to acknowledge that all of this can literally happen and there is no escape. 

This is what I thought as well at one point. But you see, this 'liberation' is NOT a concept. You can't rationalize yourself about your suffering. You can...but that just multiplies your suffering. Real Liberation is literally a rebirth. 

Right now, you are having an experience of being a human limited in body with a story. With liberation, you literally will feel something new. Your very mechanism of seeing and being is transformed forever!

This is why it is called the Absolute; the irrefutable over the ages! If Enlightenment was another thing that could be doubted, it would only be another stupid belief. You don't rationalize or brainwash yourself out of suffering (you can't!!). You Actually, Literally cease suffering. Now what that experience is, you have to go there and see for yourself  

Edited October 29, 2018 by Preetom

[Echoes]

@Preetom I believe we are in terrain now where language is reaching it's limit.

I want to thank you for the honest talk! enjoyed it and learned something 

[Preetom]

17 minutes ago, Echoes said:

@Preetom I believe we are in terrain now where language is reaching it's limit.

I want to thank you for the honest talk! enjoyed it and learned something 

Absolutely!

No language can express what that ''cessation of suffering'' is like, but you surely can directly go there and live that. There is well a documented process, all worked out for last several thousands of years to undertake in this. Many people have done this over the years and came out clean from the other side.

Thanks to you as well for this conversation  

Edited October 29, 2018 by Preetom