Meditation and Illusion

[Superfluo]

Hello everyone!

I recently watched Leo's video called "Why Brains Do Not Exist" and it all seemed logical to me, I understood the concepts and their implications. We are in an illusion/reality that is all there is, and at the same time that illusion is nothingness, there is no "I" because it's an illusion too, a part of that reality. We are infinite oneness, everything is all, there's no "everything" indeed, it's all Essence. 

However there's still one point I don't grasp. I'm new here and I don't know if a question like this has already been answered elsewhere. The question is: why meditation works? How is it able to "break", to trascend the illusion? After all, the process you go through meditation is still an appearance inside of the illusion. So, let's make an example: let's say you are meditating and you reach a state where you are fully present. Even if you stop to use the mind, even if you go beyond your thoughts and you put them apart and reach a state of presence, isn't it an appearance inside the illusion? In that state you still perceive sensory stimuli, which are part of reality. You still perceive sounds coming from your surrounding for example. 

Personally I've experienced an extremely tiny moment of transcendence that helped me realize this stuff, so I know it's possible to reach a deeper state of consciousness. In that moment I had a great insight, a realization of the "truth", I temporarily saw beyond the "curtains". But then, where that realization came from? It was still something resonating with my thoughts and my emotions. So it was, at least in part, inside the illusion. Therefore how do we know it wasn't the ego perceiving itself in an unknown form? You can answer that to reach the state of enlightment you abandon your ego. But the absence of ego is still an event occurring inside an illusion that doesn't exist.

I know the mind cannot comprehend the enlightment experience, or at least explain it. It's something you have to experience by yourself (I also watched the video about the implications of Godel's incompleteness theorem). But maybe someone can try to explain it to me. Maybe there's something I'm missing, maybe my reasoning has some fallacies, some holes.

Thank you

[Bluff]

1 hour ago, Superfluo said:

The question is: why meditation works? How is it able to "break", to trascend the illusion?

The thing you call illusion is all the mindstuff. meditation works because you shut down the minds functions as far as possible. As you shut this down you become concious of what's left - what is conciousness. 

 

1 hour ago, Superfluo said:

But then, where that realization came from? It was still something resonating with my thoughts and my emotions. So it was, at least in part, inside the illusion

that's tricky. what did you realize? just that there is more than mindstuff, isn't it? the part of you which realises is the mind. it's not gone when you make these experiences, it's just very quiet. the part of you which goes beyond is conciousness. conciousness doesn't understand, it just is.

of course it resonates with your thoughts.. how could the Mind ever ignore the notion of conciousness. 

[Nahm]

@Superfluo You are having a dream. In this dream you sit down and meditate, and you realize you are the dreamer, not the character. Then, you get to    live the rest of this life, knowing it’s a dream - wIthout fear & doubt, without falsity, without overthinking. 

[Superfluo]

@Bluff Yeah, meditation makes you shut down the monkey mind, and the goal is to shut it up as far as possible as you said. Totally agree. Then you say that you can perceive what's left, i.e. consciousness. Totally agree again. But then let me make another example to explain my problem even further. We agree that the mind is full of thoughts, and that the absence of thoughts is the state of enlightment (I made it simple).

Let's say the mind with thoughts is a box full of things (thoughts), and all there is outside the box is the "truth". I know this mental image I'm offering to you is wrong, because this example oversimplifies mind and Being. There are a lot of details to be aware of. But for explanation sake let's move on. So, meditation makes the box empty, like you said. But what's left is the empty box and the reality external to it, not just the reality. So how can the "empty mind" perceive Being if it's only an empty container? I don't know if I made my point of view clear, but the mind can't comprehend all this stuff. So thank you for your answer.

 

@Nahm Yes, totally agree, when you realize you're inside a dream, then everything becomes less "heavy", more "transparent" to you, and you can live knowing everything that matters is having fun and experiencing the beauty of this magic journey. However you are in this dream, so better make it as wonderful as possible (even if free will doesn't exist i.m.o. ahahah), to maximize happiness (which I think has little to do with inner peace). So people, just relax and have fun and be kind each other. It's as simple as that

Edited October 22, 2018 by Superfluo

[Bluff]

On Monday, October 22, 2018 at 9:28 PM, Superfluo said:

But what's left is the empty box and the reality external to it, not just the reality

that's not the case. when the box is empty, the box will see there is no outside the box. It's all one.

You're stuck in concepts here. Don't take your ideas to serious. They will never give you answers.

Enlightenment is not about understanding. It's about seeing.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Bluff

[Superfluo]

@Bluff

Quote

when the box is empty, the box will see there is no outside the box.

But why? How does it work? These are the questions that continue to bother me.

Quote

You're stuck in concepts here. Don't take your ideas to serious.

Yes, I know, we can't understand more if we continue to use language and reason in this topic. But I'm just trying to find a compromise between my personal experience and the materialistic point of view I held before. When you say enlightment is not about understanding but about seeing it sounds like a matter of faith, doesn't it? I know reality is pure magic, like Leo said in one of his videos, and I agree. I know you have to have faith to embody enlightment. But then it's like having faith in a mysterious man up in the clouds with a white beard we cannot see, isn't it? Yet people who have experienced some degree of deep consciousness believe there isn't a God in the clouds (like me. I'm applying skepticism even to my own ideas and experiences).

Edited October 25, 2018 by Superfluo

[Superfluo]

I've found a video made by Teal Swan about going beyond the oneness truth that might be related to what I'm saying, even if I've never perceived it, so I don't know if it is possible. But maybe it can expand someone's mind. You can search it if you want, I've seen I can't share videos here.

I know Teal Swan, and I think she's a wise woman. But again, there are no proofs ahahah

Edited October 25, 2018 by Superfluo

[Superfluo]

@Leo Gura Is there an answer you could give me? I'm still searching for an explanation 

[WelcometoReality]

@Superfluo Do you really need to know this? Does meditation work for you to achieve your desired outcomes?

On 2018-10-22 at 0:03 PM, Superfluo said:

Even if you stop to use the mind, even if you go beyond your thoughts and you put them apart and reach a state of presence, isn't it an appearance inside the illusion? In that state you still perceive sensory stimuli, which are part of reality. You still perceive sounds coming from your surrounding for example. 

The realization is that there is no you to perceive sounds. The perception happens without any perceiver and the boundary of inside and outside dissolves.

[Superfluo]

Mhm I think I got it now, thank you everybody! However, feel free to continue discussing this topic if you want!

Edited November 4, 2018 by Superfluo