dark knight of the soul, can't escape

[Gabriel Antonio]

2 hours ago, SageModeAustin said:

I hate people, I hate myself.  I hate existence, I hate everything.  I need help, nothing will shake this feeling off.  I've been stuck in this state for over a decade now.  I've tried just about everything, really starting to not care anymore.

Yes, you're right. You do need help. You're exhibiting classic signs of depression. Don't fall into the trap of romanticizing it as something "spiritual".

Throw all the silly advice people have given you here, and go seek professional help. 

[Jack River]

@Gabriel Antonio or instead learn the self/thought so maybe there can be seen how how depending on advice/psychological help actually feeds psychological problems. Looking to others to solve selfs psychological problems is the self looking to thought to solve its problems. This is the cause of such problems though. This is exactly what we are taking about. That is resistance itself. This isn’t spiritual woo woo. This cuts to the root of psychological disorder my dudes. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

When the self looks to thought to solve the problem thought created then the self feeds it’s own illusion. It’s thinking that we can escape by means of knowledge, advice, experiences that we get caught in this psychological time loop and the reason conflict/suffering continues on and on. It’s totlaly gnarly how thought feeds itself isn’t it

[Jack River]

Thought in its very nature is structured to depend on the content it accumulates to solve its problems. This is food for self. Psychologically looking to thought prolongs freedom now. Thought works as to solve a problem in the future. So self will hold freedom in the future and never act now, which is where freedom is. Using Thought to end psychological problems projects freedom in time/future. Seeing this fact we stop depending on thought and we see that freedom is not dependent on thought. Psychologically no “thing” or “think” is necessary dudes. It’s so groovy. Check it out. Explore the self. Life changing. Real living. ?

Edited October 18, 2018 by Jack River

[Gabriel Antonio]

@Jack River Let me get this right: are you saying that, for example, depressed people should deal with their disorder by themselves? 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Gabriel Antonio

[Nahm]

@Outer ya. Nice man! 

[Jack River]

22 minutes ago, Gabriel Antonio said:

@Jack River Let me get this right: are you saying that, for example, depressed people should deal with their disorder by themselves? 

 I’m saying people avoid learning about the probelm and think the answers lie in authority. They escape the problem everlastingly. Use or observe this depressesion to understand that depression. At least go to someone who promotes self understanding. They will tell you right out of the gate that they cannot help you if they are honest. I’m sure there are good therapist out there who work this way. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

And we people’s disorder is not ours...the “we” are the disorder lol 

 

[SageModeAustin]

@Gabriel Antonio

5 hours ago, Gabriel Antonio said:

Yes, you're right. You do need help. You're exhibiting classic signs of depression. Don't fall into the trap of romanticizing it as something "spiritual".

Throw all the silly advice people have given you here, and go seek professional help. 

LOL that's the dumbest shit I've ever read in my entire life.  

You want to rely on pills the rest of your life to solve your problems?  Go right ahead my friend! 

[SageModeAustin]

@Outer Holy crap man...thank you so much for taking the time to post this.  I feel like you just extracted every question that was on my mind and answered it.  That information was so agreeable and I was genuinely jaw dropped just reading it by how much it made sense to me. 

I am seriously blessed by this post, only one question..how would I go about "finding someone to work with who knows non duality/advaita to put this experience in context?"

 

[Shin]

13 minutes ago, SageModeAustin said:

@Gabriel Antonio

LOL that's the dumbest shit I've ever read in my entire life.  

You want to rely on pills the rest of your life to solve your problems?  Go right ahead my friend! 

Because proffessional help = pills ?

We're talking about a real shrink here, not a a lazy doctor who just sit and fake takings notes to finally prescribe cancer pills to their patients.

[SageModeAustin]

@Shin That's almost impossible to find, I've been to therapists and several doctors all my life, they only made the problem WORSE.  If I found out about this forum long ago, I would have been way better off.

[SageModeAustin]

6 hours ago, Outer said:

IMHO, the title, "Enlightenment's Evil Twin" is unfortunate.  Branding phenomena that can be encountered in the process of awakening as "evil", pathologizes the process and impedes dealing w/it.  "Twin" implies that "enlightenment" has an opposite, equally-prominent and likely counterpart; that is not correct.  As we will see, the attitude toward the "nondual" state is a critical element in what problems manifest.

So I should stop thinking these experiences as evil, or bad?

Jeff recently covered my "no thoughts" state and the research in which i was a subject/collaborator @ Yale w/Jud Brewer (now @ U Mass), also in Psychology Tomorrow, discussed in the blogpost "The Neuroscience of Suffering...And Its End...'no thoughts'?".

That's awesome.

Britton did not find any correlation to prior psychiatric or traumatic history.  She identified two susceptible demographics: a) men, 18 to 30 years old, who go to Asia and do 10 to 20 hrs of meditation/day, and b) middle-aged women w/an hr/day practice who go to "say, Spirit Rock Meditation Center (vipassana - Insight Meditation Society is another) for the last 10 to 20 years".

So people who meditate are more likely to enter the DNOTS?  Wow..

As discussed in the blogpost "The process of nondual awakening...a new model...", Christians and some Buddhists (previously Judeo-Christians?) often stop at an intermediate point.

They stop because they are scared of the DNOTS & makyo?

As Shinzen points out, "...almost everyone who gets anywhere with meditation will pass through periods of negative emotion, confusion, disorientation, and heightened sensitivity to internal and external arisings.  The same thing can happen in psychotherapy and other growth modalities.  For the great majority of people, the nature, intensity, and duration of these kinds of challenges is quite manageable.”

This is inspiring, knowing I'm on the right path?..or is this the wrong way of thinking-Nonduality? 

Britton importantly found that “Just talking about the experience with someone and hearing that none of it is new … has a hugely positive effect on people.  That’s eighty percent of what needs to happen.  Just normalizing the experience.” and “Length of impairment is directly related to how much access the student has to a good teacher."

Totally agree.  I feel better talking to you guys on this forum.

Despite his efforts on the phone over months w/Hans, Shinzen was reportedly unable to mediate Hans' symptoms which became more acute.  Hans' healing began with his re-engaging serious physical practices - "Pilates, weight-training, yoga" -  to integrate the psychological changes into his physical body. 
IME, this has been one of the glaring weaknesses in many/most meditational approaches; the lack of physical practice to "embody" the big changes in "body-mind".  Many stories locked in the physical body will only be accessed w/serious body work.

Hmmm, this might explain why I've had a really strong urge to workout today
 

Interestingly, one of the practices that Shinzen uses to deal w/DNoS situations is self-inquiry.  IMHO, a vulnerability in traditional Buddhist practices in later stages is the lack of self-inquiry, i.e. Who is having, accumulating, and becoming the possessor of these experiences?  If (s)he is not deconstructed along the way, (s)he will become THE problem.  Who is having this DNoS?  
 

But doesn't this lead to more depersonalization?

There is also a danger of "scripting" in DNoS.  Some teachers have insisted that DNoS is an essential part of the awakening process.  If folk are told that enough times, it will become "scripted in" and will more likely manifest.

Britton has done some research on identifying indicators of awakening.  The paper "A phenomenology of meditation-induced light experiences: traditional Buddhist and neurobiological perspectives", describes meditation-induced experiences w/light that are considered to be indicators of meditative proficiency and the ability to inhibit irrelevant inputs from impinging on attention. 

Many meditative traditions treat these "light experiences" as "makyo".  These are described by Yasutani Roshi, an iconic Rinzai Zen master, as "the phenomena - visions, hallucinations, fantasies, revelations, illusory sensations" - which can "become a serious obstacle to practice only if one is ignorant of their true nature and is ensnared by them."   That is one of the reasons that some traditions sit w/their eyes open, partially, or fully.  
Yasutani Roshi goes on to say that makyo vary "according to the personality and temperament of the sitter".  It would be unfortunate if one particular kind of makyo was taken to be the indicator of progress in meditation simply because we are currently able to measure it.

That's super interesting..and scary.

 

Edited October 19, 2018 by SageModeAustin

[SageModeAustin]

ALSO, I want to genuinely thank everyone for commenting on this post, even if I thought the advice was useless!

[Hellspeed]

Go f... yourself,, in a blissful way, if you know what I mean.

[Malelekakis]

@SageModeAustin this is not a dark night of the soul. This is just your condition created by who knows how many factors.take action. Its the only way.

[Gabriel Antonio]

On 10/18/2018 at 8:48 PM, Jack River said:

At least go to someone who promotes self understanding.

Yes. A good therapist won't try to fix your problems, but instead be a mirror to your own self. 

When people are emotionally fragile, their self-reflection becomes very inaccurate. 

So therapy can act as a scaffolding to help the person become his or her own psychotherapist later on. 

 

On 10/18/2018 at 8:48 PM, Jack River said:

think the answers lie in authority

Yes, that's a common trap.   

 

On 10/18/2018 at 8:48 PM, Jack River said:

I’m sure there are good therapist out there who work this way. 

Unfortunately they are rare. Bad therapy is worse than no therapy. 

[Viking]

just some pointers, i dunno:

• when did you start feeling this way and what happened during that time that might've caused it?
• I dont believe you didnt feel even a single bit of happiness throughout the dacade, what gave you happiness? and why?
• maybe you feel like you should do something and not doing it, maybe you're not following what you think you should be doing. depression is usually a signal the body gives you that you need to change something

[Adam M]

Consider Seeing a psychologist. 

You are fabricating false stories about your life that some psychotherapy work may help to unravel.

"I hate everything, I hate myself."

Why not create a mantra that you repeat 50 times a day.

"I LOVE EVERYTHING, I LOVE MYSELF"

 

You can be whatever you set your mind to. You are the one who is choosing to identify with such a negative thought-story.

[SageModeAustin]

@Gabriel Antonio I've done therapy before and it did help me