What actually is enlightenment?

[Quantum_fluctuations]

I want to know what really is this idea of enlightenment ? I have read Jed Mckenna's books, so I'm aware of no-nonsense approach. But mckenna doesn't trust science. Science is the best language to describe things. So scientifically speaking, what actually happens when somebody attain enlightenment, from objective POV?

How can we say that one can no longer suffer after enlightenment? If enlightened person is caught by someone and they torture  him in many possible ways like  verbal abuse, physical abuse or harming someone of his family etc. would he not feel suffering at all?

Edited October 17, 2018 by Quantum_fluctuations
edited

[B_Naz]

Science is great. You shouldn't always follow blindly teachers and such. You should question what they say, which is what you're doing and so that's good. 

Science currently is flawed because scientists today are very aggrogant and close minded, so I would suggest doing your own research and even your own experiments 

Nobody can really tell you what enlightenment is. 

15 minutes ago, Quantum_fluctuations said:

 How can we say that one can no longer suffer after enlightenment? If enlightened person is caught by someone and they torture if him in many possible ways like  verbal abuse, physically abuse or harming someone of his family etc. would he not feel suffering at all?

This is a misconception of enlightenment. What you described is ego death. The person being insulted has no ego, has no identity and has no values. This means that the person who is insulting the "enlightened" person is actually insulting nobody. There is nobody to insult

Don't pursue enlightenment to stop suffering. Persue it for the sake of pursuring 

Edited October 17, 2018 by B_Naz

[Quantum_fluctuations]

10 minutes ago, B_Naz said:

Nobody can really tell you what enlightenment is. 

I just recognized that I was looking for assurance about what I will get on pursuing idea of enlightenment. Something like they promise when they sell  products in advertisements. 

15 minutes ago, B_Naz said:

Don't pursue enlightenment to stop suffering. Persue it for the sake of pursuring 

Why would people pursue it? This would make many few people go for it? People have many better things to do in life than pursuing enlightenment for enlightenment. Most would die without even knowing that some better experience exists. 
 

19 minutes ago, B_Naz said:

 

This is a misconception of enlightenment. What you described is ego death. The person being insulted has no ego, has no identity and has no values. This means that the person who is insulting the "enlightened" person is actually insulting nobody. There is nobody to insult

 

So, it  is actually possible to be in state like that when you are nobody. I guess being nobody is better than being somebody. Has there been any person or scientific study or anything which can describe such case that you're aware of?

Isn't ego death same thing as enlightenment?

[Shin]

1 hour ago, Quantum_fluctuations said:

I want to know what really is this idea of enlightenment ? I have read Jed Mckenna's books, so I'm aware of no-nonsense approach. But mckenna doesn't trust science. Science is the best language to describe things. So scientifically speaking, what actually happens when somebody attain enlightenment, from objective POV?

How can we say that one can no longer suffer after enlightenment? If enlightened person is caught by someone and they torture  him in many possible ways like  verbal abuse, physical abuse or harming someone of his family etc. would he not feel suffering at all?

The only way to know is to become directly conscious of it.

Everything else is mental masturbation.

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Shin

[B_Naz]

2 hours ago, Quantum_fluctuations said:

Isn't ego death same thing as enlightenment?

Personally, I don't think so. There are other ideas and direct experiences to see other than ego death like intelligence of the universe, which Leo goes really deeply into. There's more to enlightenment because enlightenment is infinite! Don't take my word for it though, see for yourself

2 hours ago, Quantum_fluctuations said:

 So, it  is actually possible to be in state like that when you are nobody. I guess being nobody is better than being somebody. Has there been any person or scientific study or anything which can describe such case that you're aware of?

This is a good point actually. I haven't personally dived into scientific perspectives of ego death.

Howverr there has been studies on psychedelics and ego death. 

Here's the first link I found on LSD and ego death

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.livescience.com/54399-why-people-on-lsd-lose-themselves.html

But I don't know any study or reports on ego death with pure meditation. 

[Hellspeed]

I can tell you what Enlightenment is. Is the conquest of your being, to a conscious level. No more subconscious drama as the dormant is. A complete control of emotions, not to control them in the sense of control, but in the sense of knowing the source of each emotion and how to deal with them or any thought. Is not about being in control, is about letting the control totally go, then a paradoxical inner power rises and a sense of total empowerment. Discovering one's true personality that is always dynamic. 

What happens scientifically for the genuine Enlightened? More brain power, more physical power, no more uncontrolled drama and hopelessness. A sense of belonging even if one is alone. No more high morals or fixed standards. It is the end of boundaries and the start of infinite possibilities. Full body healing. In the practical sense, you become 10x more human, no more questions to ask, one realizes that love is only an inner work with oneself and love for the exterior creatures or things is an illusion that leads to death. In a sense is the end of love as we know it in society. The discovery of true power, true connections with yourself and others, no more doubts about feeling lost. One starts seeing the majority of the dormant masses as a crude joke imposed as serious. 

The possibility to train psychic abilities and boredom with external knowledge. The end of prejudice and the starting of the embodiment of being genuine, even if in the process you hurt other's feelings. All loving for other human beings starts to disappear when one discovers that the core of things is something deeper then what the world believes of what love is. A genuine inner love arises that influences the harmony of one in the surroundings. So, there is no more excitement for mind thrills and wanting to have a lot of things or people around. Become unimportant what you really care for or about. A nice flow in any situation and one becomes a stranger in the jungle? No more normality, everything feels in place and new. One gets misunderstood like a lot, but who cares? There is no more complex in hurting someone's feelings or being afraid to speak up or even punching someone if it is the case without remorse and the same time knowing why it is necessary to act like this. There is no more the sense of "showing the other cheek", just to be accepted or applaud. There is an "eye for an eye" in a healthy way around difficult situations. But in the majority of cases, one does not attract disharmony or dangerous situations. No more accidents or random happenings. 

And this is only a glimpse because enlightenment is quite the opposite as a normal human will think it is or feels. 

[Emanyalpsid]

6 hours ago, Quantum_fluctuations said:

I want to know what really is this idea of enlightenment ? I have read Jed Mckenna's books, so I'm aware of no-nonsense approach. But mckenna doesn't trust science. Science is the best language to describe things. So scientifically speaking, what actually happens when somebody attain enlightenment, from objective POV?

How can we say that one can no longer suffer after enlightenment? If enlightened person is caught by someone and they torture  him in many possible ways like  verbal abuse, physical abuse or harming someone of his family etc. would he not feel suffering at all?

There is the Western view of enlightenment, which in terms of science, dissolves the mind-body separation, which creates a duality, Descartes proposed.

Through concepts, one creates a distinction between an object and a subject (the one that is thinking; I). A concept is any word which describes an experience, phenomena, or object. Emotions are reactions to evaluations, through interpretation, of stimuli from your environment (Richard Lazarus).

So if you don't separate yourself from your experiences, there is no ground for emotions. There is no one to experience them, there is only the awareness of reality. Of course this is easier said then done. It takes tremendous concentration and equanimity to not be disturbed by what is happening. Especially if you are tortured.

The Eastern view on enlightenment goes further and sees that reality also does not exist upon itself. Meaning; it is of dependent origin. If you want to know more about this, read;http://www.foundationsofhumanlife.com

Everything is explained there in a way for the Western mind to understand.

So enlightenment is not a state of being, but a feeling. One feels enlightened, meaning something dissolves or goes away. Enlightened from egocentric emotions, enlightened from your chain of thoughts, enlightened from frustrations, enlightened from unsatisfactoriness, enlightened from your desire to control or grip, etc.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Emanyalpsid

[Sven]

5 hours ago, Emanyalpsid said:

There is the (...) or grip, etc.

"So enlightenment is not a state of being, but a feeling. One feels enlightened (...)"  But no that would be impossible wouldn't it? 

I think it's impossible honestly. I think actual enlightenment is a story. But it's cool to think we could actually completely kill ourselves in a sense and thus remain just a free blow of wind.

But eh, Peter Ralston has said many times that when he actually "became enlightened", he didn't tell anyone for days. Reason being there "not being anyone to feel the need to share".

Sure his ego was so weak that it did not feel any need for anything. That is as close as you can become to enlightenment. But now, he does talk of his own enlightenment. So... He came back to talk about it? Basically that's what follows. But my perspective might be one without the proper direct experience.

Either way by the way that website you linked seems cool I'll give it a read.

[Emanyalpsid]

11 minutes ago, Sven said:

"So enlightenment is not a state of being, but a feeling. One feels enlightened (...)"  But no that would be impossible wouldn't it? 

I think it's impossible honestly. I think actual enlightenment is a story. But it's cool to think we could actually completely kill ourselves in a sense and thus remain just a free blow of wind.

But eh, Peter Ralston has said many times that when he actually "became enlightened", he didn't tell anyone for days. Reason being there "not being anyone to feel the need to share".

Sure his ego was so weak that it did not feel any need for anything. That is as close as you can become to enlightenment. But now, he does talk of his own enlightenment. So... He came back to talk about it? Basically that's what follows. But my perspective might be one without the proper direct experience.

Either way by the way that website you linked seems cool I'll give it a read.

If that guy you are referring to said he became enlightened, he was not really enlightened in the Eastern sense of enlightenment. His enlightenment is probably the Western interpretation of it, which is only half of the insight thought in Buddhism.

After attaining enlightenment people usually go and tell/teach other people about it. 

If you read the website and reflect upon your own experiences you will understand.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Emanyalpsid

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, Quantum_fluctuations said:

Science is the best language to describe things.

This is an unemprical and highly subjective claim. An epistemic assumption and dogma.

Question it.

Have you explored every other alternative mode of inquiry? Then how can you say science is the best?

Don't just believe things culture tells you. And yes, science is def cultural.

[Forestluv]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is an unemprical and highly subjective claim. An epistemic assumption and dogma.

Question it.

Have you explored every other alternative mode of inquiry? Then how can you say science is the best?

Don't just believe things culture tells you. And yes, science is def cultural.

Is that a step toward transcending science into an integrated mode of inquiry?

[Sven]

20 hours ago, Emanyalpsid said:

If that guy you are referring to said he became enlightened, he was not really enlightened in the Eastern sense of enlightenment. His enlightenment is probably the Western interpretation of it, which is only half of the insight thought in Buddhism.

After attaining enlightenment people usually go and tell/teach other people about it. 

If you read the website and reflect upon your own experiences you will understand.

"After attaining enlightenment people usually go and tell/teach other people about it."

You must be kidding. You respond without actually searching Ralston on the web? Because youre entire response would not be the same if you had

[Nahm]

@Quantum_fluctuations

There is an infinite being. 

And nothing else. At all. 

Has nothing to do with science or language.   

It is you.    

 

[Joseph Maynor]

Enlightenment is seeing through the bullshit of reality and being able to separate what appears to be there from what’s actually there.

[Shadowraix]

You tell me what enlightenment is.

On 10/17/2018 at 3:44 AM, Quantum_fluctuations said:

verbal abuse, physical abuse or harming someone of his family etc. would he not feel suffering at all?

You can only suffer from those things if you acknowledge them as bad and/or resist what happened.