Free Will DOES EXIST within the Illusion and MUST BE exercised to achieve

[SoonHei]

all enlightened masters say the same thing. there is no free will. there is no doer-ship. etc...

it makes sense from their current viewing pov - of no self.

while the common man / seeker is living in the illusion, the free will is there 100%

one cannot say that if enlightenment happens (no self is realized) that it was all by grace and not their own doing. it is essential to note that our true self which is always present is 100% what we are right now, living as the ego. the true self, though, present, suffers as it has associated itself with the body-mind. the realizations/understandings which occur bring about the next series of thoughts/experience. all the while, the sense of doer-ship is there and it must be exercised as such and the work put in to seek / see-thru the illusion.

it is only after the illusion is seen thru can we say it was an autonomous happening all along. However, just as there is the experience and living out of the life in duality while in the ego mode, there is also an actual living out of the free will. 

IT IS AN ILLUSION yes - but that's the workings of it. you have to steer the wheel and guide the flow, where the flow goes depends on your steering. you have that free will and control over it. this is a very crucial point often overlooked / misunderstood, especially when one hears from the sages that there is no-doer of actions or thinker of thoughts (that point of view is relative from where they are vs where you currently are)

[SoonHei]

8 minutes ago, Ero said:

If there is no separation from what is consciously perceived, the change is within consciousness itself.

yes. i agree with this. the HIGHER SELF / TRUE SELF working thru/living out life each of the ego-minds is what has this realization and it is understood.

 

I'm not sure about the question you asked in bold...

[Shin]

The only way to know is to acutally live it.
You can write all the wall of text you want, a the end of the day you don't know !

And that is time that you could have used,

TO WATCH YOUR HAND !

[SoonHei]

@Shin i'm scaled the level of skill that requires no glance at the keyboard or the screen to see what I am tying and if I'm doing so accurately. in other words, I can type without looking... 

care to venture a guess about where my eyes might be looking at as I type this?

 

oh yes. you got it

 

 

#TheHand 

[AlwaysBeNice]

Not all enlightened masters say there is no free will, many of them don't comment on it at all, say it's partly true, true and not true, or say they don't know, i.e. Mooji, David Spero and Adi Da (in that order).

edit: and in my own experience, I've never not experienced free will, albeit some things go more automatically than others, and it would be weird to separate myself from that (but synchronicity shows it's One Self).

Edited October 12, 2018 by AlwaysBeNice

[Preetom]

@SoonHei

Interesting post. I agree one thing with you. 

2nd hand knowledge doesn't help at all. 

The truth about free will (or anything) needs to be seen with one's own clarity.

It only makes the trap deeper if sages try to shove it down one's throat.

[SoonHei]

@AlwaysBeNice yes, i agree. not all say that... but this is a common understanding when talked about

 

8 minutes ago, Preetom said:

The truth about free will (or anything) needs to be seen with one's own clarity.

It only makes the trap deeper if sages try to shove it down one's throat.

exactly. speaking from a place of non-duality, most of what's being talked about are pointers as it can only be so that way

 

[Preetom]

@SoonHei

I watched a Rupert Spira video where he says that if you legitimately feel like a separate self with free will, then that IS your present experience and it is better to acknowledge your present situation.

It is a lot better to 'use' that free will to inquire into that self instead of parroting non dual truths like ''there is no doer, there is nothing to do, there is no free will''. It is no different that hearsay. We already believe A LOT of things on hearsay like we were born, we are human, there is an external material world etc.  

This attitude is what he calls the religion of non duality. That made a whole lot of sense for me haha

[SoonHei]

@Preetom yup I agree

what i mean to say is the same! embody your current experience. dont live it on the beliefs, like there is nothing to do etc...

it is most of our experience right now that we are a separate self. sure, most of us on this path know so intellectually or have had a few peeks here n there about the TRUTH but it isn't out present experience

 

it's just important to note that when a lot of the realized masters look back and say it wasn't anyone doing any of these actions which led to the realization. it is correct

but all the while living as the ego in that past, there WAS someone doing something. inquiring, thinking, doing the work.

 

the point of views are relative, not absolute.

being with your current point of view and working from that is the key

not projecting an expected POV and working out of that

 

[Joseph Maynor]

It’s a mistake to think in terms of in the illusion and out of the illusion.  Ditto for the distinction between relative truth and absolute truth.  There’s only one actual reality and that reality doesn’t have facets.  

Edited October 12, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[SoonHei]

@Ero you raise some good questions there...

i'd like to get an answer too, i have an idea about what it might require to see thru... but i'm hoping someone with a higher understanding / direct realization can step in and answer here... 
@Nahm @cetus56 @Leo Gura

[Jack River]

@SoonHei all this is answered when time comes to a stop dude. Nobody can help you. 

[SoonHei]

@Shiva LOLOL 

@Jack River time comes to a stop = ego death = non-dual realization = seeing thru the illusion of self + separation = enlightenment 

yeah?

[ajasatya]

both free-will and predestination are just mental noise. get over it and feel WHAT YOU ARE.

[Jack River]

11 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

time comes to a stop = ego death = non-dual realization = seeing thru the illusion of self + separation = enlightenment 

All of the above are assumption based unless time ends. Time as in desire, effort, fear or psychological time/psychological becoming. In that there is silence. I would totally disregard everything you have heard about what you assume. 

Start with.. can time end?

when you pre-assume things to be attained that is projecting your own self invented image. Start with a blank slate brah. 

[Joseph Maynor]

2 minutes ago, Ero said:

@ajasatya You are right. Nice to check in. Back to staring at my hand 

(currently listening - feels thematic) 

Love you all! 

 

What did he say that you think is right and what reasons do you have for thinking that?

[Jack River]

Psychological time is the key here. Which means all day everyday watching fear in movement which will arise as desire for pleasure, escaping what is actually happening to you by ignoring, controlling, rationalizing, and looking to thought to self soothe the psyche. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Jack River

[Preetom]

@Ero

Give it some thought.

A batman movie is being played on a screen. In this metaphor, the screen is the unchanging, absolute reality (pure consciousness) and the movie is the content (appearance without any substance of it's own).

Like it or not, you are the screen. Not the batman movie. No matter how much you imagine and obsess about batman, you never become batman. You can never become batman because there is no such thing as batman. There can be no such thing as batman. See the twist here?

So no matter how much you try to wrap your brain around batman, at the end of the day it's all insubstantial hallucination. At no point, the screen becomes something else. So where is your 'free will'? Does the screen have the free will to permanently become batman? No. It can only dream up this fantasy, all the while remaining what it is.

Now bring it all in your direct experience. Complete Enlightenment may take time and lots of deconditioning. But right now you can have a taste. Get the feeling in your experience that honestly feels like you. Try to pinpoint it. Then  ask yourself, ''What is it that knows this experience?'' and see what happens to your attention. Right in that moment, you are taking your stance as awareness. Being aware of being aware.

Now explore the qualities of awareness(if it has any) from this place. Here, the mind is absent/insignificant. You can't ask mind because mind has already made up it's mind . Take your stance as awareness and explore it's own experience.

If you ask Awareness about free will, it will remain silent like the screen. But if you ask the mind about free will, of course it will claim to have free will. Just like batman would claim, '' You kidding me motherfuka? I'm Bruce wayne, the king of kings''

See the plot here? If you seriously want to consider about Enlightenment, you need to cease the obsession towards phenomena/mind at one point or another. It can't be any other way. You can't translate Awareness's own intimate 'experience' of being in mind's language. If you persist, then soon this place will have another zen devil named @Ero. This is what zen devilry is. Separate self/mind using or distorting non dual truths to meet it's own agenda. 

Zen Devilry = Pure Consciousness translated into mind's language and 'believed'

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Preetom

[Jack River]

When this time loop comes to a stop the unoccupied mind is free to explore. Free will is a contradicting idea invented by thought. When will, desire, fear, time stops then freedom is all that is left dudes. All previous notions invented by thought...throw them away. Start with nothing, because if time ends that’s all that’s left anyhow

Edited October 12, 2018 by Jack River