Questions about free-will.

[Recursoinominado]

I am rewatching Leo's videos about enlightenment to have a better grasp of it and in his first FAQ video he said that we have no free will because there is no "we/i" doing anything. Ok, i get it, but i am having trouble grasping and swallowing this bitter pill. 

1. This means that in fact the "i" we think we are can't do anything at all? We are just watching some movie that we think we are inside moving the character but we aren't? 

2. IF the is no "i" to do anything, who is having insights and making decisions, plans, meditations, doing self-inquiry and reaching enlightenment? 

3. Leo said in the video that if we realize this Truth, we would see the whole game and transcend it but dropping all neurotic worries and attachments, which would reflect on our actions (making better choices, being more loving etc). How does this work? 

4. How can we change any behavior at all? What does it mean to self-development if there is no one to control our actions and pursue enlightenment?

5. If in fact "we" are consciousness(god, reality, existence) itself, why can't i feel anything outside the skin of this body? Why i don't feel what other people feel or see what other people see?

 

There are some good books or material about this subject?

 

Please don't answer with "who is asking?" or "there is no "i"" or something like this, i get this but i would like some elaboration about it.

[How to be wise]

Before I answer those questions we will make one assumption which you must accept. That is: Reality is everything that you are experiencing directly right now with your five senses. Everything else is your thoughts about the situation and is hence not true. Unfortunately this claim can only be proven through your direct experience. But if you accept this, then good. Here we go:

1) Notice that the “I” you are talking about is not a direct experience, because you can’t sense it out there. You have a picture in your mind of this “I”. This picture is not true, it’s just a picture. Notice that beyond the images in your mind, ‘out there’ there is no “I”.

2) Why do you have to assume that ‘somebody’ must be doing this. Notice that that itself is just a thought, a mental image which is not true. Without your thoughts about it, reality is just happening. 

3) Right now you are not really acting the way that you want to act, because of your fears. Once all that fear is dropped, you will act the way that you truly want to act. The spontaneous, authentic movement which might make you look strange to outsiders, but you don’t care anymore. I don’t agree with Leo that seeing the truth is enough. You need to let go of your conditioning, which is a lot more work.

4) Again, why do you assume that somebody that somebody must be doing this. Notice that this is just an idea. ‘Out there’ does not demand a ‘controller’ of the body.

5) Again, why do you assume that you must feel it. That is just imagination. Try to position your mind in the outside world. Is ‘out there’ saying that you must feel it. ‘Out there’ is not demanding anything. It just is. Those assumptions are beng created by your thoughts.

Just remember that those answers will only make sense if you practice. I understand that traditional self-inquiry is extremely difficult. In that case, just do The Work of Byron Katie. It’s working very well for me. You don’t have to worry about ‘finding’ enlightenment. Just do the process and you will be guaranteed to reach the end.

[Mu_]

12 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

I am rewatching Leo's videos about enlightenment to have a better grasp of it and in his first FAQ video he said that we have no free will because there is no "we/i" doing anything. Ok, i get it, but i am having trouble grasping and swallowing this bitter pill. 

1. This means that in fact the "i" we think we are can't do anything at all? We are just watching some movie that we think we are inside moving the character but we aren't? 

2. IF the is no "i" to do anything, who is having insights and making decisions, plans, meditations, doing self-inquiry and reaching enlightenment? 

3. Leo said in the video that if we realize this Truth, we would see the whole game and transcend it but dropping all neurotic worries and attachments, which would reflect on our actions (making better choices, being more loving etc). How does this work? 

4. How can we change any behavior at all? What does it mean to self-development if there is no one to control our actions and pursue enlightenment?

5. If in fact "we" are consciousness(god, reality, existence) itself, why can't i feel anything outside the skin of this body? Why i don't feel what other people feel or see what other people see?

 

There are some good books or material about this subject?

 

Please don't answer with "who is asking?" or "there is no "i"" or something like this, i get this but i would like some elaboration about it.

There are many angles where this can be approached from but since "how to be wise" went at it from the angle she did, I'll just piggy back that approach and build on it to help you.

Have you ever wondered where your thoughts, idea's and feelings about stuff come from?  Or do you assume you did them or have them?  Things may arise of their own accord/design more then you assume.  What you call you and yours may be apart of something grander at work.

It wasn't long ago that the greeks I believe had this idea about being vessels for muses for gods/creativity itself.  Some of the big thinkers/artists didn't assume they had ideas of ones own creation, these idea's/gifts/new thoughts were graces of something bigger than them, creating something new through them and into the world..  You may not be what you think you are and how things all fall into place may not be what you think as well, and thats a start to breaking the veil into a new seeing....

I'm pretty sure its safe to say that seeing will remain, but this idea of "you" is the big question here, and probably has more layers then you've currently realized.

If you've never watched Alan Watts, look him up on youtube, hes got a big view and a great way of getting to your question.  He was once a philosopher at Oxford and a fairly experienced zen monk.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Mu_

[Jack River]

2 hours ago, How to be wise said:

Without your thoughts about it, reality is just happening. 

Says thought/reality.

Reality being ‘res’ is thought thinking about a “thing”. 

So the above quote is still a product of thought. 

2 hours ago, How to be wise said:

Just do the process and you will be guaranteed to reach the end.

Lol ..the self and the practice, the process, are the same. To project an end is to project a “thing” which is inherently fixed dude. Freedom or liberation is not something fixed and time is not a means. 

@Recursoinominado to grasp the nature of thought/self/reality/ and that limitation comes your answers brah. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

You are walking through a door to higher levels of spirituality. For me, ceratain realizations were really uncomfortable and at times I felt like I was going to spiral into an abyss. Yet it is also is very liberating. 

I would pursue learning about free will from awakened beings such as Rupert Spira, Adyashanti, Eckart Tolle and Lisa Cairns. They have plenty of videos on guiding people through this realization. I would avoid lower level philosophy that leads to nihilism.

You are just waking up to a truth. For me, waking up to this truth stirred up a lot of anxiety. I was afraid that if I wasn’t really in control, all hell could break loose. Then I realized that it’s been this way my whole life and I’ve been been fine. No worries. Just keep advancing upwards. You will eventually realize you were drinking gutter water in your delusional state. Life will become more free and beautiful than you can imagine. 

 

[Jack River]

Explore into nature of thought itself and not particular systems or philosophy’s. 

[Forestluv]

23 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Explore into nature of thought itself and not particular systems or philosophy’s. 

That’s cool you just wrote that. I recently started conversing with with a gal who seems highly evolved. I tend to explore existential questions and metaphysics for itself - through my own self inquiry, contemplation and direct experience. I watch some videos -to integrate into my framework and to stimulate new ideas and experience. I’ve noticed this gal is very outward oriented. She keeps citing some philosopher, someone’s theory, this and that yogi, some Buddhist whatever. I like a bit of that, yet it can be too much.

I guess I was like that for a long time, yet a couple years ago the outward seeking energy dissolved. I’m more interested in learning from within. That which arises from inner stillness is our greatest teacher.

[Jack River]

@Serotoninluv

I feel you there..right on!! 

[Arkandeus]

Its a half-truth

You have free will, but your higher self and the universe itself has free will too

So it would say it ends up being a mix, things can turn somewhat as you like them but often not in the way or the result you'd want, in the end you usually end up with something that is really mixed but still deeply satisfying (that is infinite intelligence for ya)

Unless you become conscious on the level of universal awareness, which will take  a couple of billion years probably, free will is shared between yourself and life

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Arkandeus

[Misagh]

16 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

I am rewatching Leo's videos about enlightenment to have a better grasp of it and in his first FAQ video he said that we have no free will because there is no "we/i" doing anything. Ok, i get it, but i am having trouble grasping and swallowing this bitter pill. 

1. This means that in fact the "i" we think we are can't do anything at all? We are just watching some movie that we think we are inside moving the character but we aren't? 

2. IF the is no "i" to do anything, who is having insights and making decisions, plans, meditations, doing self-inquiry and reaching enlightenment? 

3. Leo said in the video that if we realize this Truth, we would see the whole game and transcend it but dropping all neurotic worries and attachments, which would reflect on our actions (making better choices, being more loving etc). How does this work? 

4. How can we change any behavior at all? What does it mean to self-development if there is no one to control our actions and pursue enlightenment?

5. If in fact "we" are consciousness(god, reality, existence) itself, why can't i feel anything outside the skin of this body? Why i don't feel what other people feel or see what other people see?

 

There are some good books or material about this subject?

 

Please don't answer with "who is asking?" or "there is no "i"" or something like this, i get this but i would like some elaboration about it.

1. Who is "We"? That's just the "I" masquerading. Who is this "We" who is doing the watching? It's all the same: a thought or a collection of thoughts.

2. The Self.

3. Yes but this process is gradual are requires further work.

4. The point is, that once you self-realize, you regain the ability to not always want to change the situation in your benefit because you no longer see others as separate. In the words of Alan Watts, if you are caught in the river stream, to the degree that you go with it, you are still.

5. This pretty much shows that you are not self-realized. Your perspective is of someone who is "IN" reality, not someone who "IS" reality. The idea is, that if you are not able to see what are people see, is because that sensation does not exist. You imagining that it does is an illusion. Although, there are cases that those sensations do in fact exist, and you do perceive them, whether  consciously or not. For example, YOU are 100% responsible for the beating of your heart, but does the little "I" know that? No. You are trying to perceive reality from the little Is perspective and that is causing the issue. I can explain this further if there is interest. 

 

[Forestluv]

41 minutes ago, Arkandeus said:

Its a half-truth

You have free will, but your higher self and the universe itself has free will too

I’d be wary of a “higher self”. It’s so easy for sneaky egos to hideout in a “higher self” concept.

The awakening is the realization that the “person” has no free will. There is no choice. There is no chooser. 

It’s can be excruciating for the self to surrender to. It’s also deeply liberating. It’s been among my most profound awakenings 

 

[Recursoinominado]

 

 @How to be wise Thank you for your answers, for sure i am making a lot of assumptions (which are only thought), i think it bothers me that the "i" i think i am never done shit. I often see your recommendation of The Work by Bryon Kate, i listened to the audiobook but never really did the work, you have some tips or a workbook that i can start without having to read the whole book? 
@Mu_ I love Alan Watts! Although i already knew about all those ideas, i never had a genuine grasp, experientially, but i see some of the depth of it and a motivation is growing in me to inquire about it. This concept of thoughts just arising is mind-blowing. 

@Serotoninluv This is kind of exciting, i am on this path for a few years and it is really a spiral, you come back to old ideas only to dive deeper and grasp more of it and i am seeing how i am being led to investigate enlightenment, contemplation, free will, thoughts etc.
@Arkandeus That's deep, fuck.

@Misagh What you said about the heart beating is a good analogy, in fact, most of the time, i don't feel my heart beating but it is. I would love some further explanation.
@Shiva I understand this, my goal here is to grasp the depth of this topic to motivate myself in its investigation (direct experience). I am into spirituality for some time but only a couple of weeks ago i am starting to grasp the importance of self-inquiry and contemplation. 

 

[How to be wise]

@Recursoinominado The book ‘Loving What Is’ is a must, I’m afraid.

[Shin]

@ajasatya   

Does it feel like "you" are doing stuff, or is it just a movie that plays itself ?

No philosophical or spiritual answer that don't answer the question please.

Whatever the answer, can you choose to get immersed in the movie and play the character like before (while knowing it's "bullshit") or letting it plays itself, as in choosing to push a on/off button ?

Or can't you ?

@eputkonen

@Shanmugam

 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Shin

[ajasatya]

9 minutes ago, Shin said:

Does it feel like "you" are doing stuff, or is it just a movie that plays itself ?

it depends on the state of consciousness. sometimes it feels like i have to be responsible and make things work. sometimes it feels like i can't do anything and things get done by themselves. there's no absolute answer.

[Preetom]

43 minutes ago, Shin said:

 

Does it feel like "you" are doing stuff, or is it just a movie that plays itself ?

No philosophical or spiritual answer that don't answer the question please.

''The sage is neither asleep nor awake. He neither closes nor opens his eyes. Thus, for the liberated soul, everywhere there is only This.''

''The liberated soul does not blame or praise, give or take, rejoice or become angry. He is everywhere unattached and free.''

''In the sage there is neither violence nor mercy, arrogance nor humility, anxiety nor wonder. His worldly life is exhausted. He has transcended his role as a person.''

''Though he may perform actions, the man of Knowledge does not act. Desires extinguished, free of thoughts of “I” and “mine,” he knows with absolute certainty that nothing exists.''

''The sage is free. His empty mind no longer projects delusion, dreaming, dullness. This state is indescribable.''

''One may enjoy the abundant pleasures of the world, but will never be happy until giving them up.''

''The universe is but a thought in Consciousness. In Reality it is nothing. One who sees the true nature of existence and non-existence never ceases to exist.''

''The Self--which is absolute, effortless, timeless, immaculate-- is without limits and at no distance from you. You are forever It.''

''The yogi who finds stillness is neither distracted nor focused. He knows neither pleasure nor pain. Ignorance dispelled, he is free of knowing.''

''He who sees the world may try to renounce it. But what can the desireless one do? He sees there is nothing to see.''

''He achieves self-control who sees his own distraction. But the great soul is not distracted. He has nothing to achieve. He has nothing to do.''

''Where is meditation, pleasure, prosperity or discrimination? Where is duality? Where even is Unity? I abide in the glory of Self.''

''Where is sleeping, dreaming, waking, or even the fourth state? Where is fear? I abide in the glory of Self.''

''The yogi who is liberated while living has no duties in this world, no attachments in his heart. His life proceeds without him''

''For one who has transcended the world there is no joy or sorrow. With a stilled mind, he lives on with no body.''

''Though they are by nature Self alone, pure intelligence, love and perfection; though they transcend the universe and are clearness itself, men of the world will not see this through meditation and practices.''

''The fool tries to control the mind with the mind—what folly! The wise one delights in Self alone. There is no mind to master.''

''Though pleased he is not pleasured; though pained he does not suffer. This wonderful state is understood only by those like him.''

''There is no need to talk about the three ends of life. To talk of yoga is purposeless. Even talking about Truth is irrelevant. I rest in Self alone.''

-Collected from Ashtavakra Gita (Bart Marshall Translation)

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Preetom