Why is enlightenment so “slippery”

[GeoLura]

@Jack River Yeap, at some point it all becomes natural. Just awareness 24/7 without "effort".

[Jack River]

13 minutes ago, GeoLura said:

just surrendered and that's when i got my first real glimpse. So in that sense effort IS needed.

So it’s not needed. What is needed is seeing the how effort leads to conflict/fear. Right? 

Just because we made the mistake of getting caught in the effort trap doesn’t mean that it is necessary to have to go through that. So I will never say effort is necessary to see that effort is not necessary. If we start with understanding ourselves without heading in a certain direction then we come to the understanding the effort is the ego naturally. And we are not caught in the trap of trying to stop time by means of time. You see what I mean dude? 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

The sooner we see holistically the nature of effort the sooner we stop moving in that direction. The more this becomes understood in consciousness the sooner consciousness leaves behind all falsity they time can dissolve time. Then maybe soon or a later consciousness will naturally inherently be choiceless psychologically. Our action or non action paves the way for consciousness later. Consciousness is always changing or in our case not changing. Unless we stop the falsity of psychological evolution today tomorrow will be the same. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jack River

[GeoLura]

@Jack River  Again, i can only speak from my own experience. All this conseptual bullshit never helped me to progress. After some time i just sat down and started to ask: what is real, who am i etc. +This forum is mostly waste of time tbh.

[DrewNows]

A way of doing, as in effort, is needed until one sees why it is not. So in a sense it can be necessary, yet not necessary. Way to get into this! @Jack River and @GeoLura

[Mu_]

Just now, Jack River said:

The sooner we see holistically the nature of effort the sooner we stop moving in that direction. The more this becomes understood in consciousness the sooner consciousness leaves behind all falsity they time can dissolve time. Then maybe soon or a later consciousness will naturally inherently be choiceless psychologically. 

In regards to your whole conversation with GeoLura, I think what your advising may not be useful for some, even if it holds truth for say 50% (arbitrary number) of people.  If someone is a alcoholic or a drug addict, I'd be very hesitant in sharing your idea's as a solution to their current situation.  Maybe I'm wrong but some effort perspective I feel would go a longer way for them in the critical point that they are at.

[Jack River]

11 minutes ago, GeoLura said:

Again, i can only speak from my own experience

Your experience is basically my experience. Experience is basically the same for within consciousness. Truth has the ability to  point to falsity. To bring to the surface the truth in the false. It’s an insight that is holistic. It is not the result of thought conceptualizing. The essence is born of nothingness/The unoccupied mind. 

[Jack River]

2 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

In regards to your whole conversation with GeoLura, I think what your advising may not be useful for some, even if it holds truth for say 50% (arbitrary number) of people.  If someone is a alcoholic or a drug addict, I'd be very hesitant in sharing your idea's as a solution to their current situation.  Maybe I'm wrong but some effort perspective I feel would go a longer way for them in the critical point that they are at.

I was addicted to weed and painkillers. For me in grasping the falsity of effort/psychological time all that addiction/pleasure seeking ended. We owe it to people to have this kind of info available. There is someone very special that took the time to share this with me. If they wouldn’t have I would still be in that game of conflict and be slowly destroying myself. Which means I was holding back consciousness as a whole too. All this psychological becoming just keeps all the conflict/suffering alive. 

[Jack River]

And this understanding is not conceptual, it is of intelligence. Holistic seeing. 

[SoonHei]

@Jack River you state that seeing holistically the nature of effort is key to all this.

 

What practices or contemplation led you to this? How can I try to think about this or see thru this illusion?

[Jack River]

12 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

@Jack River you state that seeing holistically the nature of effort is key to all this.

 

What practices or contemplation led you to this? How can I try to think about this or see thru this illusion?

I would think of it like this dude....not trying to get somewhere or something like “enlightenment”. Instead of trying to work within the pattern of effort/thought we can understand why we move within this pattern and understanding the limits of that pattern of psychological movement. 

Before deciding to use effort why not investigate the nature of effort and its limitations. Namean? Stay with the problem. Stay with what is. Then we are able to learn about what is. But if we instantly move away from what is which is ‘effort movement’ or psychological time we never are able to observe and learn from the problem/falsity. You get me my dude? 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

We will then see every action we take within the effort pattern leads to more conflict/suffering. The insight that sees the totlalty of effort/thought/self will come in a instant flash. 

Example do you understand what I mean when I say time=desire, motive, effort, practices, routines, systems? 

Everything in the conditioned consciousness=time. 

When you see the truth of this actually there is instant ending to that pattern. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jack River

[SoonHei]

@Jack River

6 minutes ago, Jack River said:

When you see the truth of this actually there is instant ending to that pattern. 

Then what remains? Does the phsycoligical time not continue after this too? I mean you are writing this reply and all?

 

I guess you are doing so and since that instant flash of the insight, you have been 100% aware of the movement. No falling back to the illusion?

[molosku]

I just deleted multiple rows of reply, because I realized I can't help you. No one can. No one can tell you what to do, really. It is a path you walk alone, and when you are alone there is no one to tell you what you should do. Follow your instinct, be watchful of your intentions and open up. Open up to others and your environment, but most importantly, open up to yourself. Yoga? try it and see what it does for you. Meditation, contemplation, self-inquiry, solitude, being in nature, shadow work, being strict, being lazy, new age stuff, spend time alone, spend time with a partner or friends...? Go and see for yourself. Fight all the battles you create for yourself, eventually there will be a surrender when the time is right.

Edited October 13, 2018 by molosku

[Jack River]

23 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

Then what remains? Does the phsycoligical time not continue after this too? I mean you are writing this reply and all?

No you see the danger in it and that is it. If you continue to move in time you haven’t SEEN yet. 

 

23 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

I guess you are doing so and since that instant flash of the insight, you have been 100% aware of the movement. No falling back to the illusion?

It’s all a field that is observed within that effortless/unoccupied awareness. You don’t any longer see the field as the whole, but it is seen as a function of the whole. The field of reality=effort/motive/desire/choice/ego/thought. All of that is the field which we don’t see any longer as all important. We see that is only a part function of the whole or what is 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jack River

[Mu_]

55 minutes ago, Jack River said:

I was addicted to weed and painkillers. For me in grasping the falsity of effort/psychological time all that addiction/pleasure seeking ended. We owe it to people to have this kind of info available. There is someone very special that took the time to share this with me. If they wouldn’t have I would still be in that game of conflict and be slowly destroying myself. Which means I was holding back consciousness as a whole too. All this psychological becoming just keeps all the conflict/suffering alive. 

I see.  Thanks for sharing.  It sounds like you got what you needed to hear.

[Saumaya]

On 11/10/2018 at 10:40 PM, SageModeAustin said:

I’ve only truly felt it for about 10 seconds one time when I was meditating just recently.

I notice even though I’ve felt it before I can’t get back to it very easily, at all.  

Why is this?  Why was I able to achieve enlightenment that one time, but not now?  Is it because I got lucky? 

The point is not to chase experiences, but become permanently self realised. Experiences come and go.

[Jack River]

6 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

see.  Thanks for sharing.  It sounds like you got what you needed to hear.

I saw what was avoided and why there was suffering. It wasn’t something given to me. It was simply seen that pursing a reward and resisting punishment limits the energy needed to observe without limitation. The insight isn’t the result of thought. Not the product of memory/knowledge. In other words it’s not conforming to words of someone else. Be amazed when psychological time stops influencing action what happens. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

The real gnarly thing about the ending of psychological time is you are always changing from moment to moment. So you can never say you are enlightened or you know truth. Because truth is not fixed. This is why people who say they are enlightened have missed the point. Because to say that is in direct contradiction to the winds of change dudes. To live as truth means and the embracing of constant change. Only when we are still clinging to the old do we say we are enlightened or we know what enlightenment is, or we know what truth is. That would mean all that is contained within an experience. But it is not. It’s totally groovy man.  Again all of this came in a flash of insight. Instantly life changing. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Jack River

[SageModeAustin]

@molosku Thanks, this insight spoke to me