Interview for people demonizing Jordan Peterson

[Shroomdoctor]

I really recommend to watch this interview: Jordan Peterson articulates his views very well and I think one might be able to gain a lot of value from this, for example on how blue can be expressed in a healthy manner. 

p.s. that lobster tie...  

[Forestluv]

@Shroomdoctor Promoting healthy blue would be great in the year 1890 when the the U.S. was blue-centered. But in the year 2018, the country is Orange-centered evolving upward toward Green. Why encourage people to adopt healthy blue values? Why not guide people to adopt healthy Green values?

Said in another way. . . Should we promote healthy Red values? Should we teach people in the U.S.A. to how to live with warlords and mafia leaders within their community? Of course not, we are no longer centered in red. Blue is on it's way out. . . 

[TomDashingPornstar]

@Serotoninluv

Green like to immigrate Blue and Red people. You can't have a completely green nation.

Edited October 11, 2018 by TomDashingPornstar

[Forestluv]

22 minutes ago, TomDashingPornstar said:

@Serotoninluv

Green like to immigrate Blue and Red people. You can't have a completely green nation.

Of course not. As well evolve upward, Blue will become extinct. We will shift upward. Orange will be the lower level and more people will be Yellow. Then, new Yellow and Turquoise categories will arise.

Purple is dead in the U.S.A. - Blue is dying and will eventually die off. 

[DarkestLight]

What it seems like to me is that much of America is Blue-Orange. Promoting healthy blue and healthy orange is important. JBP helped me integrate blue better even though I don't necessarily agree with him on everything. Without the ethnocentrism and excessive dogma that tends to accompany blue (In America, but blue comes in many forms/many cultures), tradition has an important role to play in the stability society and grounded values in people. (Nietzsche's death of God and nihilism were a necessary stage for me, but it was miserable and destructive before moving more to a humanistic orange) The societal order and strictness is what allows orange to be born. The same thing with a strong emphasis on science and economics, because a society can't transition into green without first having the material infrastructure, education, and technology produced to have a post or less scarce society. We have healthy versions of each stage and mixtures of the stages like interlocking rings that support one another. We can't push people into stages they aren't ready for, we can only encourage them to manifest healthy versions of their values and when the time comes they change (Ideally, for the better) That's basically my perspective based on my experience and journey so far.

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, DarkestLight said:

What it seems like to me is that much of America is Blue-Orange. Promoting healthy blue and healthy orange is important. JBP helped me integrate blue better even though I don't necessarily agree with him on everything. Without the ethnocentrism and excessive dogma that tends to accompany blue (In America, but blue comes in many forms/many cultures), tradition has an important role to play in the stability society and grounded values in people. (Nietzsche's death of God and nihilism were a necessary stage for me, but it was miserable and destructive before moving more to a humanistic orange) The societal order and strictness is what allows orange to be born. The same thing with a strong emphasis on science and economics, because a society can't transition into green without first having the material infrastructure, education, and technology produced to have a post or less scarce society. We have healthy versions of each stage and mixtures of the stages like interlocking rings that support one another. We can't push people into stages they aren't ready for, we can only encourage them to manifest healthy versions of their values and when the time comes they change (Ideally, for the better) That's basically my perspective based on my experience and journey so far.

Sure, there is nothing wrong with teaching healthy red or blue values - yet how will that help the new generation in a culture that is evolving upward?

Should we teach millennials how to use flip phones or modern smart phones? Should we teach them how to use commodore 64 computers or new emerging AI technology? Should we teach them homosexuality is immoral? Or should we educate them about emerging expressions of gender?

There was a time in the U.S.A. in which conservatives fought against the modern automobile. They wanted to keep the horse and buggy. Before long, we will look back at blue values as ridiculous. Mocking blue values has already become mainstream. The only reason people believe blue values is because they are conditioned to believe blue values. Given free choice between religion and spirituality - humans will choose spirituality. One needs to be programmed to believe lower values. 

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Shroomdoctor said:

I really recommend to watch this interview: Jordan Peterson articulates his views very well and I think one might be able to gain a lot of value from this, for example on how blue can be expressed in a healthy manner.

 

Well, I disagree on the teaching blue values for the reasons that @Serotoninluv mentioned. But I also don't think that Jordan Peterson is a healthy expression of Blue. He demonizes forward movement and is very resistant to the feminine principle, which is what society desperately needs to integrate if we're going to make the transition to sustainable and harmonious living before the Earth becomes too far gone to save. He is also very erratic in his mannerisms and gets upset easily. 

He comes off to people who value intellectualism as an intellectual. But he is really a demagogue in intellectual's clothing. He doesn't really care about the free exchange of ideas. His ideas are set, and he says everything that he can to cunningly make them more palatable to the mainstream. So, he functions as a Trojan horse of human regression... which will be disastrous if it takes too much more of a foothold in society.

 

[DarkestLight]

@Serotoninluv When I'm talking about blue, I'm mainly talking about the positive aspects of it. Not necessarily specific doctrines, but basic values that contribute to human survival. Red values strength/power, which is necessary to protect rather than destroy, and blue is about order and law, to allow prosperity not to oppress. I'm not saying go back to the past, but we can still learn some valuable lessons from these values and integrate them into green for example

[Forestluv]

@DarkestLight

Higher levels use laws, but they don't "value" laws for the laws' sake. Blue is pre-rational and thinks either / or. You are either a criminal or a non-criminal. Rational thinking is Orange. Blue values laws irrationally. For example, my mom is deep blue and *values* laws because they are laws. If someone smokes weed in Nebraska it is wrong because it is against the law. That person is a criminal. If someone smokes weed in Colorado it is OK because it is legal in Colorado. So, I ask my mom "What if two people are standing on the border of Colorado and Nebraska sharing a joint. The person on the Nebraska side is a criminal and the person on the Colorado side is OK?". She struggles for a while then answers "Yes". I push it one step further and say "What if a person smoking a joint has one foot in Nebraska and one foot in Colorado? Is the right side of his body criminal? Should half his body go to jail?". My mom is now in utter confusion, then gets angry that I am trying to manipulate her.

Another example: Consider people in the U.S. with health conditions that have no health insurance (or their basic coverage does not cover their prescription). They get their medication from Canada "illegally". To Blue this is a crime. I know a middle-age guy whose health care coverage doesn't cover Viagra. The out-of-pocket cost of Viagra is outrageous. He gets Viagra "illegally" on the internet. He is either unable to have sex with his wife or a criminal for breaking prescription medication laws.

Orange and above does not "value" laws like Blue. Blue is either / or thinking regarding laws. You are either a criminal or non-criminal. Blue is irrational regarding laws. One must evolve up to Orange to see continuums and think rationally. Noone is saying we should abolish laws. One important aspect of evolving upward is that we do not reject all aspects of lower stages, they become more nuanced and sophisticated.

[DarkestLight]

@Serotoninluv I don't really think we're in disagreement here. I grew up in an environment that had a mix of strict blue and loving green values, so it's likely that's part of my bias/ego. For example, my mother is a White American liberal Roman Catholic and my father is a Vietnamese Mahayana Buddhist. They had some ideological elements of blue combined with multicultural and pluralistic thinking, and my temperament/way of seeing the world is similar to that. I had spent equal time in Buddhist temples as I had in Catholic cathedrals. I think I need to go talk to more people in blue and with my own experience see what drives them. I try to spend my time with people who are blue, orange, and green and synthesize their perspectives. I would say I recently hit a point where I began to move past orange over these past few months and really begun to come back to green. Perhaps I need to look at pure blue this time.

[Hellspeed]

Difficult for me to listen to that effeminate voice of Jordan Peterson, lol. 

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, DarkestLight said:

@Serotoninluv I don't really think we're in disagreement here. I grew up in an environment that had a mix of strict blue and loving green values, so it's likely that's part of my bias/ego. For example, my mother is a White American liberal Roman Catholic and my father is a Vietnamese Mahayana Buddhist. They had some ideological elements of blue combined with multicultural and pluralistic thinking, and my temperament/way of seeing the world is similar to that. I had spent equal time in Buddhist temples as I had in Catholic cathedrals. I think I need to go talk to more people in blue and with my own experience see what drives them. I try to spend my time with people who are blue, orange, and green and synthesize their perspectives. I would say I recently hit a point where I began to move past orange over these past few months and really begun to come back to green. Perhaps I need to look at pure blue this time.

Somewhat similar for me. I grew up in a Catholic home and got involved with Buddhism when I left my home.

Consider that what you may be consider "healthy Blue values" are actually at an Orange and Green level. For example, rational views of laws are Orange. Blue values community and so does Green. Yet, Blue's "community" is restricted to their tribe (e.g. white Christians). Green's community is much more expansive and inclusive - whites, minorities, christians, jews, buddhists, LGBTQ etc.

Purple level community = a small isolated tribe

Blue level community = "their people" - e.g white christians

Green level community = multicultural, all people

Turquoise level community = all of reality

"Community" is not a value for any level. How community is valued and expressed varies among levels.

 

[DarkestLight]

@Serotoninluv Thanks I appreciate it. I have a tendency to romanticize every stage, trying to find the most idealized version of each stage as possible.  Do you have any recommendations to get away from that sort of thinking and become more realistic in my perception? I have a tendency to automatically have strong compassion for people and animals but I realize this too may be a projection of my ego. I tend to project noble intentions or at least a form of innocence onto everything

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, DarkestLight said:

@Serotoninluv Thanks I appreciate it. I have a tendency to romanticize every stage, trying to find the most idealized version of each stage as possible.  Do you have any recommendations to get away from that sort of thinking and become more realistic in my perception? I have a tendency to automatically have strong compassion for people and animals but I realize this too may be a projection of my ego. I tend to project noble intentions or at least a form of innocence onto everything

There are healthy expressions of blue. For example: a military soldier that sacrifices himself to help his wounded comrade. 

Another way to look at it:  Is a dinosaur *better* than a modern deer? No, dinosaurs had their time and place and became extinct. Now deer have their time and place. Eventually, they will go extinct. Similarly, Blue had it's time and place (e.g. The Roman Empire). Now, it's going extinct.

The liberals of today will be the conservatives of the future. My students cringe when I say "Marriage is only between a Man and a Woman". That is a conservative view (that is becoming extinct). The progressive view is open to same-sex marriage, transgender couples etc.

Now I tell my students to imagine themselves 60 years from now when their grandchildren want the freedom to date and marry Androids. Again, the students cringe! They don't like the idea of humans marrying Androids. In the future, "Marriage is only between two Human Beings" will be the conservative position. They are cool with straight and LGBTQ relationships, but not human-android relationships. They are progressives for today, conservatives for tomorrow. 

[Forestluv]

Just now, Outer said:

Do you think about this?

Think about what?

[Forestluv]

19 minutes ago, Outer said:

What you just wrote, do you think about it?

Yea, I think about stuff. I'm not sure what you are asking.

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Outer said:

Well why?

Because my mind is imaginative and likes to wonder about things.

[Setty]

I would suggest that people on this forum should consider stopping categorizing people with colors of spiral dynamics. It doesn't help you to understand the positions they hold and it just allows you to dismiss them without any consideration of their arguments. People resonate with him because he offers solutions that work for them. Maybe you would want people to learn different values that resonate with you. Well you are free to embody those values but it isn't up to you to decide what other people should want. 

Now let's go through some Peteron's core positions and I would really like to know why do you think they are outdated or wrong.

• In everyone's life there is a lot of suffering. You think that it is bad and tragic but you are more than competent to deal with it.
• You won't find meaning in life if you only seek happiness. Life is about taking responsibility in your life and finding meaning in that.
• Don't identify yourself as a victim. If you see yourself as a victim you will become bitter and you will hurt people around you. Take responsibility for your life and make the best of it no matter how unjust it is.
• Emphaty can hurt people's development. If you take responsibility from their life they might never navigate life by themself.
• When taking action you have to think not only about your present self but you have to think about you in a day, week, year and so on. You therefore have to sacrifice some of the present  for the future. Happiness now might not be the most important thing.
• You have to treat yourself and others as someone valuable. A being with tremendous potential that can be realized.
• No one ever got away with anything. If you warp reality for your benefit it will eventually snap back and it will not be good for you.
• You have to have faith in your potential. Even if there is no evidence that your endeavour will accomplish anything it is important to have faith in it.
• The way you develop yourself is by facing your fears. You put yourself in difficult situations that aren't overwhelming with some reasonable chance to succes and as you get use to it you will increase the challenge.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Setty

[CreamCat]

@Serotoninluv TJ Reeves advocates embodying every lower stage properly before moving up. In a way, purple is not dead. Blue and Orange are very much alive in myself. Red weakened, but I need to strengthen it again to refuel motivation. I'm going to work on Beige, Purple, Red, Blue, Orange, and then Green. I'll start with Beige. Working on Beige means sleeping right, eating right, meditating right, breathing right, and a few other things.

He views spiral dynamics as something like maslow's hierarchy of needs.

He says ignoring lower stages leads to unhealthy aspects of higher stages.

Edited October 11, 2018 by CreamCat

[Forestluv]

@Setty SD is just a model. It has it’s uses and it’s limitations.

You can cherry pick JP. 

Why did you leave out his position in things like postmodernism and LGBTQ?

JP is weighed down by Blue and Orange. Just like Richard Dawkins is weighed down in Orange. 

I had let go of 20 years of scientific study to evolve higher. It aint easy, but it is sooo liberating. Once you advance up to Green and Yellow you will look back and think “Why on earth did I hold on to blue/orange?”