Brazil general election - Spiral Stage

[Bernardo Carleial]

@waking_dreams@waking_dreamsanother time I have to disagree on that. This is definitely not stage yellow reasoning.  It's very biased. And do not take multiple perspectives.  Yes it has some truths in it. But why he didn't put Bolsonaro's agenda into perspective as well? Purposes like giving guns to the whole country and cutting some salaries for the workers? Why did he not spoke about Paulo Guedes? The minister of finance of his government who is a neoliberal free market guy who wants to privatize everything state company? I also think his statement is too biased towards the Congress and the Judiciary.  They are also very corrupt. The military coup in Brazil they shutdown the congress and the Judiciary without further warning. And Bolsonaro flirts with the idea of Military Dictatorship. He himself declared that he was in favor of it and of torture. It's seems to me that the guys is a Bolsonaro's voter and try to rationalize in a way to diminish the value of the other candidate to make him look good. That's normal. That's how ego works. The reality of the situation is that we're all fucked not matter what we do. And while we still have a democracy we have to choose the lesser of two evils.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Bernardo Carleial

[kieranperez]

On 10/12/2018 at 3:45 AM, Leo Gura said:

Thing is, you can't just upgrade an entire nation by electing one good guy. That never works. What's necessary is to upgrade the systems, the infrastructure, the culture, the average people.

Low consciousness people cannot appreciate a high consciousness leader (if Lula can even be called that -- I can't speak to what crimes is did or did not commit).

I actually thought about this a lot today. I live in the San Francisco and have lived in the Bay Area for the 20 years of my 23 years of life and I’ve been to other 3rd world counties but haven’t actually explored much of the US or even California. I was deep up Northern California near the Oregon border and it stuns me all the time just how barren, broke, and undeveloped a lot of the parts of even the state of California is. A lot of that time was spent thinking ‘’man. I’m so involved thinking about how to get to stage Turquoise in life (and obviously yellow) that I’ve lost perspective.” I mean, the only places to eat we’re just a McDonald’s, Quiznos, Burger King, etc. you can see people shooting up (though we have a lot of that here in SF), run down homes, so many extremely obese people, etc.

Actually got pretty a little disheartened because cities like San Francisco are developing more and more faster and faster every day , month, and year and these parts of the state/country are stagnated in their personal development for numerous decades now which means their economic situation is just going to get worse and worse since stage blue has become a lesser economic force over the years, leaving this kinds of people obsolete... and there are A LOT of them. Stage Orange growth only cares about advancing itself and not that which isn’t thriving. It doesn’t have a holistic enough collective development plan nor have much concern for the greater collective beyond Orange’s current collective that it situates itself in... even though Orange is only involved in that collective only for its own self oriented advancement of its agenda. 

[Leo Gura]

On 10/12/2018 at 4:28 AM, Etherial Cat said:

ut to upgrade the system, a good start is to have leaders able to kickstart policies which are going to lift society higher in the spiral. A primitive leader like him is a terrible setback, and will empower blue/red cultural propagation against orange/green.

Yes, that is the catch-22 of social development: low consciousness crowds tend to elect low consciousness leaders, and low consciousness leaders tend to empower low consciousness crowds.

The entire society must therefore go through the struggle of fighting it out. The fighting it out IS the ACTUAL process of growth & evolution. Growth and evolution are sometimes bloody and ugly. Peace leads to war, and war leads to peace, and on and on it goes. That's the duality inherent within nonduality.

Every country, and every human being is going through this struggle to various degrees. It's just since Brazil isn't as mature as America or Europe, its growing pains will be more acute.

[AlwaysBeNice]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, that is the catch-22 of social development: low consciousness crowds tend to elect low consciousness leaders, and low consciousness leaders tend to empower low consciousness crowds.

The entire society must therefore go through the struggle of fighting it out. The fighting it out IS the ACTUAL process of growth & evolution. Growth and evolution are sometimes bloody and ugly. Peace leads to war, and war leads to peace, and on and on it goes. That's the duality inherent within nonduality.

Every country, and every human being is going through this struggle to various degrees. It's just since Brazil isn't as mature as America or Europe, its growing pains will be more acute.

There's a funny thing about the less educated or apparently more primal humans, they seem to be more open towards a sort of intuitive spirituality, like academia is officially so against psychic stuff, religion often, weird ideas, where as common man seems to be open more open to it often I feel like.

So now we have freaking Kanye ranting about infinite dimensions and how he is Hoover in one of them and he should save himself, how he's channeling from the soul, positive affirmations, how schools are boring and should have meditation and art programs, and the US president is loving it x)

 

[Stefano]

On 11/10/2018 at 2:12 PM, Bernardo Carleial said:

 

Hello people, i just joined the forum, forgive my poor english.

In corrupt systems, such as brazilian elections and politics, a non-corrupt/decent/high-conscious candidate cannot win, so neihter Bolsonaro, Haddad, Ciro nor Alckmin would be good choices. The central problem that should be solved is the inversion of the role of the state, in wich the masses are currently working to maintain the state, not the government serving the whole, and none of those candidates would help on that, making brazilian progress painful and slow.

Lula and the workers party should be off the political discussion. I see their movement as a sophisticated red stage, for being prior to blue fundamentalism, its exclusive interpretation of happenings, ideological allignment with low consciousness dictatorships such as maduro, and castro.

Bolsonaro almost was killed, and it's very likely to be a work of left wing groups.

Lula is a very smart guy, all the people that had close contact with him reported him as being extremely persuasive. He's become a character, and his life is about holding to it. He has allowed many ugly things to happen, and the reason he has been successful is because we brazilians are low conscious too. Many of us think of self benefict before the community, almost at an immoral level, despite being mostly christians. Makes me remember how Hitler could persuade Germany in World War II.

In a theoretical field, i imagine that Bolsonaro has evolved through the years, despite never really liking or agreeing with him. He has said a lot of nonsense, even supported lula in 2002 against the PSDB candidate wich name i can't remember, in the past he was probably a stage red, but currently, even being related to militia goups, and being 'against gender ideology' (wich is funny haha), is still a better option than another four years of Workers Party, that wold be completing 20 years of the same group in power. But always keep in mind that Bolsonaro is still corrupt and ideological, has several charges in courts, and very self-biased. 

I was seriously seduced by the Partido novo or new party idea during the elections, for being the only proposal for sistematically changing the vision and modus operandi of the state, to a position of reducing the funds spent on its own, and actually working for the better good of the whole. Right after the elections the Senators voted to increase their own salaries, wich is already a big problem to balance the finances, leading us to high taxes and a socialist-like regimen in the bad sense, unlike in more developed countries with social policies that work out for being well managed. 

I just think that it takes high consciousness from a government to properly work with a left wing agenda, and we in Brazil almost don't have that right now. Brazil is rich in so many ways, and people don't appreciate that we should be doing much better, not lower than the level of social and finantial freedom experienced in USA. Brazillians shouldn't leave the coutry, cause its a certificate of failure.

 

[RareGodzilla]

Look at Bolsovaro's "propaganda music video"  It's gold I can't help but to laugh. 

With all seriousness in my opinion whoever the new president is, he deserves the benefit of the doubt. He should be judged by his resoults, for example the post election -anti Trump rallies were really inappropriate. Quite a lot of my own countrymen left for Brazil in 20th century. While I would be happy if they would return, I would prefer that they won't need to. 

[Cudin]

Bolsonaro: blue (super blue) 

Trump: red / orange

Haddad: green

Even though your narrative about the political situation in Brazil has partial truths, it doesn't change the fact that the PT candidade was well ahead on the spiral when compared to Bolsonaro. The choice wasn't really that hard. A green candidade that belongs to a corrupt party and a blue candidade that also belonged to a very corrupt party (PP). 

Your narrative seems the standard orange narrative that got spread through mass media. There's much more nuance in the scenario. Lula is not the saint that the workers party says he is, but he is also not the devil like most orange oriented people like to say. The funnyest thing is that lula himself is ORANGE/green and people think he plans to implement blue communism in Brazil. 

Orange will always go with blue or none when forced to choose between blue and green. It hates green more than anything. 

Politics are really easy to understand when you have a good grasp of the Spiral Dynamics model.

[Emerald]

On 10/11/2018 at 9:38 AM, AudibleLocket said:

Here in Brazil we're living in a polarized society, this presidencial election is divided by two ridiculous candidates. 

In one side there's PT the workers party, the left that is in power since 2002. They have establish a major corrupt organization, contaminating every part of the government, from the judiciary to the legislature. They are believed to fight for human rights, with more love to the poor people and the gay comunity, but in fact they just want to continue stealing from the population.

In the other side there's  Jair Bolsonaro, a Donald Trump kind of president, with a military and autoritary politic view. He claims to end the violence here with no mercy to the robbers. There are videos of him talking shit about gay people, saying he'd rather have a dead son than a gay one. In the past Bolsonaro said that torture isn't a bad thing, and his vice president is a military general. 

Bolsonaro major proposal is to end corruption and violence, and therefore he's gaining force ,Brazilians are sick of the Left corruption, this guy is most likely to be Brazil next president.

These week, more wood was threw in the fire, Roger Waters has expressed his opinion against Bolsonaro during a show in São Paulo, and the croud got crazy with him, preventing the show to continue. 

I was wondering what you guys think of this, i'am undecided like 30% of the population. what stage in the spiral are these guys in ? 

 

When it comes to making a choice between the same-old corruption with empty promises of progress and the same-old corruption plus Fascism and a moral leader that waters the seeds of hate, it is unfortunately wisest in that situation to choose the same-old corruption with empty promises of progress. Because, even if those promises are empty on the part of the establishment, they are still having a positive influence on the populace.

So, in this case, you want to stick to the demons that you know... especially when Bolsonaro is so vile. And this is true even if you are sick and tired of the same-old-same-old coming from the establishment. Electing a Fascist will only give you more of the same corruption and much much worse, to the point where things may never go back to as good as it was before.

[Stefano]

@Cudin I'm glad that you have a good grasp of the spiral dynamics model.

I don't know much about trump.

In one of the latest episodes, Leo speaks of lines of development in spiral dynamics, and it isn't so simple to just label people around. 

See, the choice between Haddad and Bolsonaro is closely attached to culture, it's surely about two very corrupt candidates.

But on Haddad and PT, i see a particular sneaky devilry there, that isn't percieved by most people, and isn't found on most other political parties. 

Their campaign is based in immorality, not because they want to legalize abortion, weed, gay rights or any other progressive policy, but in a really lower sense. Most of their members wether left the party (including the founder), were arrested for corruption, or have been accused for several crimes. We're talking of trillions here, it isn't corruption anymore, but another level of dishonesty.

There's a video of Haddad's vice-president saying she's a hypocrite in a psichological flaw. Their biggest problem is intellectual dishonesty, they know their're wrong, but still defending their ideology, wich isn't green, but a red or blue. Why? because they don't really care about brazilians, LGBTQ, or vulnerable people, only about power, no matter what. This ideology is really poisonous for the country. The mass media was mostly tendentious against Bolsonaro, except for a few like 'Record' wich belongs to religious groups.

That video shows substantially why i'm ranting about this group.

This topic is too complex to discuss in a simple forum, we could spend years.

Bolsonaro is a better (or less worse) choice than Haddad because PT was/is being dangerous for the democracy, they work with cult-like dynamics, and unlike some other left-wing movements across the globe, they aren't really supporting a cause, their core is just about power. 

I don't think what i'm saying is an orange reaction to green people, because a green group wouldn't behave so selfishly, at the point of being delusional. To them, all the charges on them are lies.

Sincerity and honesty are huge values to me, and PT/Haddad/Lula work with the opposite of that. And that is why it triggers me, not because of a so called green progressive group. 

[Cudin]

@Stefano Haddad himself is an example of honest and competent person, despite his affiliantion with Lula / PT. He was one of the best mayors São Paulo ever had. He's intelectually light-years ahead of Bolsonaro. 

I won't be repplying, because it's a waste of time, but try to see the perspectives you're missing, my friend. 

Sincerity and honesty are huge values for you, but they exist just in your head. No ego is sincere or honest. We're all playing games here. 

[Cudin]

On 12/10/2018 at 7:45 AM, Leo Gura said:

@Etherial Cat Lula is in prison.

Thing is, you can't just upgrade an entire nation by electing one good guy. That never works. What's necessary is to upgrade the systems, the infrastructure, the culture, the average people.

Low consciousness people cannot appreciate a high consciousness leader (if Lula can even be called that -- I can't speak to what crimes is did or did not commit).

Brazil is very Blue still and it will take a lot of work to transition it to pure Orange, let alone Green. Even America is failing to embrace Green. Brazil will not be Green in our lifetimes. But Orange is possible.

That's an unbiased opinion from a second tear standpoint. Most Brazilians, including some folks that are commenting here just can't get out of the mainstream perspective, which is sad given that this forum is supposed to be full of "high consciousness" people. 

Bolsonaro is probably the final blue move in our history, he will make it very clear blue's limitations, and I fear our gamma trap will be solved through rebellion / revolution. We might even spiral down to red, like it's happening in some Northeastern cities. 

It's so sad, but it's true. Brazil won't be green in our lifetimes... We have four years of "regress" ahead. That's why I want to go somewhere else ASAP. 

[Cudin]

On 12/10/2018 at 11:11 AM, Bernardo Carleial said:

I have to disagree with the majority of the people here on one point : Bolsonaro is not SD  blue  with a lot of red. He is a full red with some rudimentary blue in it. Which means that he uses blue value to justify his red behavior. 

Nah, his main trigger is actually red. He hates red's guts and that's his whole campaign. Legalizing guns, putting more people in jail, and so on...

He's solid blue. Blue can be as cruel and violent as red, you see... Every level can, really.

[Cudin]

On 13/10/2018 at 2:44 AM, waking_dreams said:

Sharing the perspective of a friend from Brazil. He's beginning to show signs of stage yellow, the job he crafted for himself is definitely stage yellow, and despite personal reasons for him wanting to not elect Haddad, that outcome seems to be his lesser of two evils based on the following reasoning. 

"Well, to me the decision is somewhat simple.
One candidate [Haddad] wants to burn the Constitution, the other [Bolsonaro] explicitly states he wants to uphold it.
No matter what Bolsonaro does in his 4 or 8 years, if we have the Constitution with its cláusulas pétreas, and our democratic institutions and checks and balances, we can go restore whatever he fucks up. You have to keep in mind the executive is only one of the powers, and even if the legislative branch is compliant, we have the judiciary which can do a lot if we have the constitution.
Do you know why they [workers party] want to make a new constitution?
It's because the Workers' Party 16 years of corruption have been unveiled and they are being judged and sentenced one after another, and they've been ratting each other out. They want to rewrite the constitution because all their other efforts failed and they want to incarcerate the opposition. They destroyed the country, are being punished for it, and want to disassemble the whole judiciary to stop [their punishment]. It's an oligarchy killing the country because their crimes were discovered.
So no, I have absolutely no faith in them to write a constitution. They might as well begin with a state of emergency, martial law, and then who knows what's gonna come afterward.
[The intention of the workers' party to rewrite the constitution] is functionally identical to a coup."

lol

[Stefano]

@Cudin is in a parallel universe haha. I'm off