AudibleLocket

Brazil general election - Spiral Stage

34 posts in this topic

Here in Brazil we're living in a polarized society, this presidencial election is divided by two ridiculous candidates. :(

In one side there's PT the workers party, the left that is in power since 2002. They have establish a major corrupt organization, contaminating every part of the government, from the judiciary to the legislature. They are believed to fight for human rights, with more love to the poor people and the gay comunity, but in fact they just want to continue stealing from the population.

In the other side there's  Jair Bolsonaro, a Donald Trump kind of president, with a military and autoritary politic view. He claims to end the violence here with no mercy to the robbers. There are videos of him talking shit about gay people, saying he'd rather have a dead son than a gay one. In the past Bolsonaro said that torture isn't a bad thing, and his vice president is a military general. 

Bolsonaro major proposal is to end corruption and violence, and therefore he's gaining force ,Brazilians are sick of the Left corruption, this guy is most likely to be Brazil next president.

These week, more wood was threw in the fire, Roger Waters has expressed his opinion against Bolsonaro during a show in São Paulo, and the croud got crazy with him, preventing the show to continue. 

I was wondering what you guys think of this, i'am undecided like 30% of the population. what stage in the spiral are these guys in ? 

 

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Don't trust anything you see on the media buddy. Lula was a great president. The problem was that he underestimated the corruption of Brazil and inside his own party. But in a sense he allowed that to happen just so he could govern in peace. Tge problem thou is that it backfired on him. Then the worker's party  elected Dilma, which was an incompetent president, and the collective ego of the worker's party has grown more and more until the shit hits the fan. Using the social programs, which has worked in the beginning, but now as an excuse to remain in power.

That's how I see the modern polictics in Brazil (speaking as a Brazilian).

Now. About the spiral dynamics stage:

Before the worker's party went to power , Brazil was stage blue and rudimentary orange. Fernando Henrique Cardoso was the president at that time, he was stage orange. Then Lula came along, and he was stage green, populist and idealist, you see, Lula was an outlier. Even the worker's party couldn't expect that. He invested a lot on social programs to help the poor, and it did work during this time. But also ( as I  mentioned earlier) the collective ego of the worker's party wanted to spread more and more of their influence, leading to white collar crime( stage orange). Then Dilma came along, continuing Lula's green program. But I really don't consider her green, she was probably a high orange. And then, during her reelection ,  she got a monstrous ego backlash. Because a lot of corruption was coming out in the media. And also the worker's party made some alliance with corrupt parties to get themselves in power, like for example the PMDB, which assume the presidency after Dilma got impeached. At that time they also got the president of tge congress with them. And now we have a red candidate, Jair Bolsonaro, against Fernando Haddad, I don't know how to categorize him. 

In short this is basically an ego backlash of blue and orange against green.

It also makes us reflect that. Although these social programs may help benefit the people's country. This is also an example that just good intentions isn't enough. The President has to think systemically (stage yellow). And to develop programs that are sustainable. Because these social programs can cost a lot.  Anyway. I think this post is a little bit too long, I'm sorry about that, it's just that is something that we Brazilians are suffering a lot.

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I think Jair Bolsonaro is pretty blue with shades of red. I created a topic here about Brazilian politics and Leo said that our country is evolving from blue to orange, which is a hard transformation.

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Looks like you got the Trump of the South on your hands there. Not good.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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Bolsonaro is worse than Trump. At least, trump didn't go as far as saying he'd rather have a dead son than a gay son.

Edited by CreamCat

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Doesn't Brazil have upwards of 60 000 murders a year? That's like low intensity warfare. When subject to that kind of chaos, no wonder people don't trust the status quo and the current mode of governance.

Here's a very interesting video about Cherán, Mexico:

 

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Blue and Red. Attempted murder of a candidate, 40% blood loss from a stab wound, is going to preclude orange. Plus native psychopaths, with large land holdings and virtually no accountability, cattle ranch owners (yay Corned Beef all the good stuff), logging industry. As well as being the last westernised country to abolish slavery and import the greatest number, probably didn't help.

In contrast I would say Portugal is stage blue, with some orange after they stopped breaking up markets, in the south. They also kind of had their own version of Vietnam, but in Africa. Funnily enough they had their own former Prime Minister in prison over corruption when I was backpacking there in the North & South, about 4 years a go. Not so funny for some families sharecropping in Portugal though. Lot of Germans in the south, probably because after upsetting a bit of Europe, countries like Greece, France, Italy, Spain etc were out of the picture for a place in the sun.

I know that Brazilians try and get Portugese citizenship, which then means they could legally work in Ireland. Ireland because the tax rates and paperwork is relatively low globally, and they speak English, plus probably are the friendliest people in Europe. 

So perhaps either a Military Dictatorship. Or something like Venezuela, hows that working out? 

Anyway generally curious about other cultures.

 

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John Oliver did an episode about this topic this week:

Some cringey moments there.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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@StephenK Yeah I think that's ace. Only when things get so evil and corrupt that some take up arms to defend themselves for some reprieve. Wouldn't be surprised though if the politician/bandits bring in logging quotas to sell. Then destroy people's lives with the "police" or army.

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Brazilian here. Bolsonaro is red/blue, as most of Brazil population (this fact was exposed by the unstoppable rising of bolsonaro). It is a extreme reaction to green ideals, we are living in dangerous times, seriously considering in packing my things and try my luck at some better place, Brazil is much more fucked up that I imagined (and I wasn't optimistic before) , we are going to pass through some rough times before we evolve as a collective ego to at least orange/green(could take hundreds of years). 

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@Etherial Cat Lula is in prison.

Thing is, you can't just upgrade an entire nation by electing one good guy. That never works. What's necessary is to upgrade the systems, the infrastructure, the culture, the average people.

Low consciousness people cannot appreciate a high consciousness leader (if Lula can even be called that -- I can't speak to what crimes is did or did not commit).

Brazil is very Blue still and it will take a lot of work to transition it to pure Orange, let alone Green. Even America is failing to embrace Green. Brazil will not be Green in our lifetimes. But Orange is possible.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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17 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

I'm a bit confused at why the Brazilian population would vote massively for Lula if he was running, according to John Oliver, and then chose as a substitute Bolsonaro?

What is Lula? Orange/Green?  Why is the population resonating with him and Bolsenaro at the same time?

Brazil have a large population of extremely poor people when Lula was elected in 2002, hundreds of people (including children) died of hunger every single day, he was the first one to try to help those people and succeeded elevating millions above this situation and made a good govern overall. The thing is, he is no saint, although he helped millions (making he extremely popular), his political party (in which he was the leader to this day) is known to be extremely corrupt with lots of scandals for years on end and refuse to accept any blame. This made the other half of the Brazils population(mostly right wings, white middle class and rich people, mostly blue with some red) HATE him and his political party and vote for anyone who poses against it. So, in resume, Lula helped millions but, in my opinion, isn't a saint but, in fact, probably corrupt and power thirst as fuck(orange with some green). The thing is, this led to the rising of Bolsonaro(blue with some red), a dumb incompetent, racist, homophobic, military, angry, aggressive politician who says that "the minorities should bend over to the majority" which poses as a "new solution" to the heavy systemic corruption that we see in Brazil. Bolsonaro gave voice to those racist angry right wings who before would kept their prejudices to themselves, today they scream that gays will be killed and stuff like that. Its a bit scary to be honest, there are reports of gays, women, poor people and everyone that isn't in favor of Bolsonaro being attacked and even killed by his followers all over the country. 

Edited by Recursoinominado

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A cousin of mine is gay and he's pretty scared with this Bolsonaro's wave. I think he should consider moving to Uruguay if Bolsonaro becomes president.

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I have to disagree with the majority of the people here on one point : Bolsonaro is not SD  blue  with a lot of red. He is a full red with some rudimentary blue in it. Which means that he uses blue value to justify his red behavior. 

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5 minutes ago, Bernardo Carleial said:

I have to disagree with the majority of the people here on one point : Bolsonaro is not SD  blue  with a lot of red. He is a full red with some rudimentary blue in it. Which means that he uses blue value to justify his red behavior. 

i agree. he's a violent and intolerant person with a discourse full of false moralism. the dude hasn't even been elected yet and there's been so much hatred and violence spread on the streets in the name of the extreme right wing already.

i think bolsonaro resonates with the average brazilian guy: rotten inside and struggling to look decent.

i and my wife already decide we'll be moving to another country.


unborn Truth

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An example of Blue would be Cabo Daciolo. Another presidential candidate.  Who is the stereotypical evangelical priest. Who goes to the debates with the bible and praises to lord while speaking.

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Brazil is such a complex country. I wonder how it's possible to love and hate it at the same time.

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3 hours ago, iluminado said:

Brazil is such a complex country. I wonder how it's possible to love and hate it at the same time.

Red Rum?


Oh and If free helicopter rides are offered, don't go. 

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Sharing the perspective of a friend from Brazil. He's beginning to show signs of stage yellow, the job he crafted for himself is definitely stage yellow, and despite personal reasons for him wanting to not elect Haddad, that outcome seems to be his lesser of two evils based on the following reasoning. 

"Well, to me the decision is somewhat simple.
One candidate [Haddad] wants to burn the Constitution, the other [Bolsonaro] explicitly states he wants to uphold it.
No matter what Bolsonaro does in his 4 or 8 years, if we have the Constitution with its cláusulas pétreas, and our democratic institutions and checks and balances, we can go restore whatever he fucks up. You have to keep in mind the executive is only one of the powers, and even if the legislative branch is compliant, we have the judiciary which can do a lot if we have the constitution.
Do you know why they [workers party] want to make a new constitution?
It's because the Workers' Party 16 years of corruption have been unveiled and they are being judged and sentenced one after another, and they've been ratting each other out. They want to rewrite the constitution because all their other efforts failed and they want to incarcerate the opposition. They destroyed the country, are being punished for it, and want to disassemble the whole judiciary to stop [their punishment]. It's an oligarchy killing the country because their crimes were discovered.
So no, I have absolutely no faith in them to write a constitution. They might as well begin with a state of emergency, martial law, and then who knows what's gonna come afterward.
[The intention of the workers' party to rewrite the constitution] is functionally identical to a coup."

Edited by waking_dreams

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