Why is conceptualising bad?

[B_Naz]

I've read a lot of what people write about actuality v conceptual understanding and that conceptualising is considered a bad habit because it's mental masterbaution 

We live in the conceptual life. Our total experience is conceptual. When I see the world, I see conceptuality. If the concept is true, then it is actual

Actuality IS conceptuality. Just because i see my hand, it doesn't mean I'm seeing it. I think I see it, But what is seeing?? Our entire existence IS IMAGINERY. it's conceptual. My mind, thought, experience is conceptual?

I guess I'm not far gone and secluded? 

Am I wrong?

[Hellspeed]

Is not bad, just not useful 90% of the time. 

[Jack River]

@B_Naz if we want to see without the concept fear as in psychological time needs to come to a stop. People don’t understand that thinking/conceptualizing and fear/psychological becoming go together. Then we can use conceptual thinking like it’s a tool. But when we don’t need the tool seeing is not through the concept. Seeing is then unfiltered. To see outward without the concept and inward. 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Jack River

[Rilles]

Seeing things conceptually is the cause of 90% of your suffering.

[B_Naz]

2 hours ago, Shiva said:

t's just that it is only useful to a certain extent. If you want to go further, you have to drop it.

This is something I just can't seem to do. I think I've completely convinced myself that I am just a concept and my thoughts are a concept. If I were to stop, then I am just the non-dual universe, to stop conceptualising IS conceptualising. My entire EXISTENCE, what I call awareness, what I seek, what I am is just a concept! I haven't seen awareness, I haven't felt awareness, I don't want to read bullshit's people on awareness because THAT ITSELF is a concept. It's nothing but a concept! It's a concept in reality. There is no escape in conceptuality, is there?

2 hours ago, Hellspeed said:

Is not bad, just not useful 90% of the time. 

How can it not be useful though? You deal with death, you deal with life, you deal with suffering, you deal with acceptance, fulfillment, whatever. You don't need to use conceptualisation but you conceptualise because it's a way to understand why we suffer, why we are this way. Here, I am talking about the "you", the identity, the ego. it stops our heads from hurting. This helps with all of the "problems" we have.

"What are we without our problems" - Mooji

@Rilles This is why I don't see conceptualising as a bad thing? Is this for security or a release from pressure? 

2 hours ago, Jack River said:

@B_Naz if we want to see without the concept fear as in psychological time needs to come to a stop. People don’t understand that thinking/conceptualizing and fear/psychological becoming go together. Then we can use conceptual thinking like it’s a tool. But when we don’t need the tool seeing is not through the concept. Seeing is then unfiltered. To see outward without the concept and inward. 

Seeing is already happening. We see EVERYTHING. But we ATTACH to things. We attach to our thoughts, and apply meaning to the seeing. Seeing is just seeing, BUT WHO SEES. Is seeing a sensory? We need to conceptualise to SEE. 

 

[WelcometoReality]

1 hour ago, B_Naz said:

I've read a lot of what people write about actuality v conceptual understanding and that conceptualising is considered a bad habit because it's mental masterbaution 

We live in the conceptual life. Our total experience is conceptual. When I see the world, I see conceptuality. If the concept is true, then it is actual

Actuality IS conceptuality. Just because i see my hand, it doesn't mean I'm seeing it. I think I see it, But what is seeing?? Our entire existence IS IMAGINERY. it's conceptual. My mind, thought, experience is conceptual?

I guess I'm not far gone and secluded? 

Am I wrong?

Here is an analogy that hopefully makes sense. Think of a computer that contains an image file. The raw data on that file is just 0:s and 1:s. The computers uses a software program to interpret this data to create an image on the screen. Without the interpretation it would just be 0:s and 1:s on the screen.

In the same way there is the raw data of seeing on the screen of awareness. The mind then interprets the data on the screen and makes distinctions like "my hand", "table" and so on.

Actuality is the raw data on the screen. The software interpretations are mind creating the distinctions like "my hand" and "table". 

The looking on my hand practice is a way to bypass the software.

[tecladocasio]

The act of seeing your hand is not conceptual , is actuality , you saying '' i'm seeing my hand '' is conceptualizing . You have the experience before you conceptualize about it 

[B_Naz]

29 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

Here is an analogy that hopefully makes sense. Think of a computer that contains an image file. The raw data on that file is just 0:s and 1:s. The computers uses a software program to interpret this data to create an image on the screen. Without the interpretation it would just be 0:s and 1:s on the screen.

In the same way there is the raw data of seeing on the screen of awareness. The mind then interprets the data on the screen and makes distinctions like "my hand", "table" and so on.

Actuality is the raw data on the screen. The software interpretations are mind creating the distinctions like "my hand" and "table". 

The looking on my hand practice is a way to bypass the software.

This is the exact way I see reality but see, what you said is conceptual AND actuality. My mind is filtering, my mind is making labels, that's all conceptual but it's happening in the ACTUAL. I can observe these and I can literally see myself making labels and judgements. 

So why is it that this conceptualising is the cause of suffering as most people suggest as well as bringing me back down

9 minutes ago, tecladocasio said:

The act of seeing your hand is not conceptual , is actuality , you saying '' i'm seeing my hand '' is conceptualizing . You have the experience before you conceptualize about it 

Perfect. This is true

This is something I need to realise 

Right now. I just feel really lost and don't know anything anymore. 

[Jack River]

@B_Naz no one will get this across to you my dude. If you watch fear/psychological time in your day to day all that will resolve on its own. Then you will come to that seeing/actuality/truth as the result of dissolving distortion...stay with the fear and psychological time. Understand and bring awareness to the distortions. Then your on to emptiness. Emptiness means not occupied. Then that non occupied mind can see what is without distortion. Anyway stay with fear/time. Excercise will not bring about deep silence. Silence is the result of a psychological time stoppage. 

[Jack River]

We cannot from the place of thought/reality do anything about  “actuality or truth”. But we can learn and become aware of the distortions of reality. We can’t come to truth from thought, as in exercises or practices as that is a doing and only fuels that same process....but the quality of truth can observe distortion/reality. That is truth being aware of distortion. Conceptualization is simply a function of the whole or truth dudes. Stillness is the ground and movement is the function. Chill my dudes, there is no division between truth, actuality, and thought/conceptualization. Only from the place of division there seems to be. It’s really all one as a whole. When the reaction and reflection falls away this is so. Then actuality is. It’s Pretty groovy dudes. 

 

Movement/time arises out of stillness...this song just came on as I write this 

Dope?

[B_Naz]

21 minutes ago, Jack River said:

@B_Naz no one will get this across to you my dude. If you watch fear/psychological time in your day to day all that will resolve on its own. Then you will come to that seeing/actuality/truth as the result of dissolving distortion...stay with the fear and psychological time. Understand and bring awareness to the distortions. Then your on to emptiness. Emptiness means not occupied. Then that non occupied mind can see what is without distortion. Anyway stay with fear/time. Excercise will not bring about deep silence. Silence is the result of a psychological time stoppage. 

I understand this completely. 

What's fucking me up is this... My current stance is that  We can not see the Truth because there is nobody to see it? We're just a concept, there's no seeing, there's only Truth. We are only concepts in this reality, that's all we ever was. This makes sense to me because all concepts I have thought about is true in actuality (to me).

Psychological time can stop, but you cannot it. Who said you can? Who came up with this idea? Only by concept. 

I'm not really asking for the truth but the question of validity in conceptualising 

Edited October 11, 2018 by B_Naz

[Jack River]

45 minutes ago, B_Naz said:

We can not see the Truth because there is nobody to see it?

 

45 minutes ago, B_Naz said:

We're just a concept, there's no seeing, there's only Truth. We are only concepts in this reality, that's all we ever was. This makes sense to me because all concepts I have thought about is true in actuality (to me).

Psychological time can stop, but you cannot it. Who said you can? Who came up with this idea? Only by concept. 

All of the above is the “me”. Seeing is when the division ends. Seeing is whole. Not divided. So the “me”/psychological becoming/though/conceptualization/desire/      fear is really all one movement of “me”. That me never sees the whole/the actual/with true eyes. 

45 minutes ago, B_Naz said:

I'm not really asking for the truth but the question of validity in conceptualising 

There is no point. Concepts serve to bring to attention the falsity/distortion.

We can communicate this to each other then an awareness can be put onto that falsity/distortion. I get what you mean man. I was just at that point two months ago. Silence  reveals all of this. And silence comes with understanding fear/psychological time in our daily living. This understanding is not conceptual. It is truth seeing totally the falsity and distortion of thought. Truth stands under reality/thought. Truth is aware of distortion. Any way this won’t help you as much as you understanding fear/time will. People think understanding distortion/thought is conceptualization. It is not. It is seeing the falsity in it. 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

The problem is we see thought/distortion as actual being WHAT IS. So we are always seeing with a division/false view.

Try watching fear all day. Do you notice with every thought is also fear? Try this man. It’s crazy what you find. Then you will see that seeing with the concept is directly involved in that. It’s gnarly dude. 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Jack River

[WelcometoReality]

2 hours ago, B_Naz said:

This is the exact way I see reality but see, what you said is conceptual AND actuality. My mind is filtering, my mind is making labels, that's all conceptual but it's happening in the ACTUAL. I can observe these and I can literally see myself making labels and judgements. 

What I'm saying is that they are two different things. That actuality is PRIOR TO concepts. They are not simultaneous.

2 hours ago, B_Naz said:

So why is it that this conceptualising is the cause of suffering as most people suggest as well as bringing me back down

What is more real, the actual seeing or the concept of the seeing?

And what if you mistake all these concepts of seeing for actual seeing. Wouldn't that be like living in a dream world?

 

[B_Naz]

1 minute ago, WelcometoReality said:

And what if you mistake all these concepts of seeing for actual seeing. Wouldn't that be like living in a dream world?

It's only a mistake if you believe in the concepts, without seeing the truth behind the concepts. We are living in the dream world because our entire reality is created by my mind. I can say that because that is something I've observed and experimented with.

With science, there are concepts/models that we can apply to things. There isn't actually "particles" in the universe but we applied a model/concept in order to understand them. To see the falsehood behind the solid/physical universe

1 hour ago, Jack River said:

All of the above is the “me”. Seeing is when the division ends. Seeing is whole. Not divided. So the “me”/psychological becoming/though/conceptualization/desire/      fear is really all one movement of “me”. That me never sees the whole/the actual/with true eyes. 

There is no point. Concepts serve to bring to attention the falsity/distortion.

Yes! This is true!!! Concepts allow awareness onto the falsehood of our reality. It's why I follow them so strongly, because I have seen some falsehood in our reality. I can say it's false because I have experimented, questioned, and observed what the concept represents and I do this every meditation, every moment (or try to at least)

I don't understand why people are against conceptualising. If you're just looking at the hand, you may realise that the hand is right there, in your direct experience but without conceptualising this hand, you're only looking, not seeing what is false about the hand. What is the experience? You need to conceptualise to understand what the experience is!

What I have to agree with Leo about this subject of the hand is that you will eventually see that nobody is looking at the hand. There was no hand and there is no you looking. This is ACTUALITY. There was nothing there in the first place

But that cannot be achieved by just "looking" at the hand or actuality. You got to see what you're looking at, and how you're experiencing everything

I still feel lost and misguided though...

[Hellspeed]

Understanding the outside world is dangerous. 

[B_Naz]

I'm not saying you shouldn't do this exercise. You should definitely but without conceptualising or seeing the false of the hand, it's just awareness 

2 minutes ago, Hellspeed said:

Understanding the outside world is dangerous. 

Really? I mean, I've never seen any danger in understanding the world, is there something I need to avoid?

[WelcometoReality]

6 minutes ago, B_Naz said:

It's only a mistake if you believe in the concepts, without seeing the truth behind the concepts. We are living in the dream world because our entire reality is created by my mind. I can say that because that is something I've observed and experimented with.

With science, there are concepts/models that we can apply to things. There isn't actually "particles" in the universe but we applied a model/concept in order to understand them. To see the falsehood behind the solid/physical universe

That is a whole other topic imo.

So you don't mistake any concept for truth? 

[Jack River]

13 minutes ago, B_Naz said:

I still feel lost and misguided though.

As long as you need to be guided you will feel lost. Watch the fear/time. Instead of spending time on here asking see if you can see all the disguised fear in your day to day. You will see that fear and thought are one. Start there dude. Nothing else will work man. Freedom from needing answers brah. Stay with “the problem”. Observe!! ?

Edited October 11, 2018 by Jack River

[B_Naz]

7 minutes ago, Jack River said:

As long as you need to be guided you will feel lost. Watch the fear/time. Instead of spending time on here asking see if you can see all the disguised fear in your day to day. You will see that fear and thought are one. Start there dude. Nothing else will work man. Freedom from needing answers brah. Stay with “the problem”. Observe!! ?

Of course, when I mean misguided, I mean I'm going in the wrong direction, not as a teacher. At the end of the day, all Truths are equal to One.

Thank you for your kind words. I will observe  

10 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

That is a whole other topic imo.

So you don't mistake any concept for truth? 

because a concept cannot be Truth!

You're right, it is a whole different topic but conceptual understanding is not the Truth. The Truth is everything, the ego, the concepts, the non-duality, the duality, everything is Truth. The religions are true, the observation of actuality is Truth in one way or another

What makes conceptualisation different is that you can see why everything is Truth