French Revolution and Spiral Dynamics

[TomDashingPornstar]

@Serotoninluv

Well before today, I don't think too many people here counted any of the male issues.  If it was known and quantified like that, I think we'd have everything ready.  And we could just proportion it directly.  The problem comes when facing what an injustice is and isn't.  Like when I'm older, if my erections for younger women drive me to accumulate enough resources to start a second family, I really don't know about messing with that.

Edited October 10, 2018 by TomDashingPornstar

[now is forever]

@TomDashingPornstar how did we come from french revolution to here?

the french also had a phase on lolita complex. but french revolution was not exactly a sexual revolution.

Edited October 10, 2018 by now is forever

[TomDashingPornstar]

@now is forever

It got hijacked on page one.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Emerald I agree with your essay on male - female power dynamics and I'm trying to think of a case where men "don't have it better". The closest I can think of is child custody after divorce.  Traditionally in the U.S., women were seen as the nurturing mother that provided child care while the men worked to provide financial support. So after divorce it seemed like women were given preference for custody share and men had to fight for equal custody rights (especially in the conservative south of the U.S.). I know we have progressed in this area over the last couple of decades, yet would you say that overall there is gender equality for child custody (assuming both parents are healthy)? This is anecdotal, but my brother, who lives in South Carolina, has had to go to ridiculous lengths in court trying to gain full custody from an unfit mother. During the process, the mother has broken custody laws, she has snapped into fits of rage and aggression - she has been caught threatening and verbally abusing the children. My brother has spent years working with lawyers, police officers and psychiatrists to gain majority custody and get the troubled daughters into therapy (one of the girls attempted suicide). The mother has worked to *prevent* the girls from receiving therapy. Yet, the court kept giving her equal custody. After years of this, he was recently given 75% custody. If the situation was reversed  - I can't help but think he would be stripped of custody.

I know this is anecdotal and I don't have statistics, yet do you think, overall, child custody is biased toward the mother?

Unfortunately, I've seen this type of situation happen quite a few times. So, there is definitely a bias against men in the family court system. And it all comes from the dynamic that I had mentioned before. I went more in detail with it in another reply that I had just made, so check that one out. But it all comes down to the rigidity of our social ideas about gender. So, society sees fathers as the expendable parent. 

My friend John got full custody of his daughter a few years back and it was a real struggle. The mother of the kids was alway really unstable and didn't have her priorities right. And when his daughter would stay over there, she would always come back unbathed and with messy hair. And John and his current wife (who is awesome) were always worried about her being exposed to negative things. So, I was really glad when he got custody... but it was a real struggle.

She (the bio mother of John's daughter) and John had even gotten pregnant once at the very end of high school. It was really quite sad because John was really looking forward to being a dad and had his hopes up for a family when he had just lost both of his parents a couple years earlier to health problems. But she decided to get an abortion, and she was very flippant about it even making jokes and things like that in front of John about it. So, she just ignored his feelings and was always really immature and uncaring. So, it was just really upsetting to see him go through that. Then they got pregnant with his daughter several years later, and I was afraid he'd get hurt again. 

But John always looked up to his father and was always family oriented. He even took care of his younger brother once he turned 18. His brother was only a couple years younger than him, but he always watched out for him. So, it's hard to see a very good father and a very inadequate mother go to court for the kids because the courts tend to side with the mom.

[Zweistein]

@Serotoninluv totally agree ?

@now is foreveryes, and imagine if we would start such "social integration learning experiences" even earlier than 8th grade? ?

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, TomDashingPornstar said:

@Serotoninluv

If it was known and quantified like that, I think we'd have everything ready.  And we could just proportion it directly.  The problem comes when facing what an injustice is and isn't.  

Yes, there are nuances as to what qualifies as a "injustice" and who gets to decide.

Putting that aside, I think their are two levels of perspective. On a case-by-case basis, an injustice is an injustice regardless if it is directed toward a male or female. One could say an injustice to a female is equivalent to the same injustice to a male.

Yet at a population level, there are a disproportionate amount of injustices toward women.

I see two hurdles to get past to reach gender equality.

1. A consensus that gender inequality exists for males and at the individual level should be taken as seriously as gender inequality for females.

2. A consensus that gender inequality dis-proportionally affects women (most gender inequality issues disfavor females). And at the population level the majority of emphasis should be directly at gender equality for females.

[Annoynymous]

You guys are focusing more on orange to green transition as i am seeing, also  you are mostly talking about green values. It is understandable because most of you are from western countries.

If you had my background, you would have seen reality differently. I am from third world country and it is primarily blue. I am a Bangladeshi and my neighbour countries are also from third world (Pakistan, India, Myanmar etc) 

Believe it or not, we even get to see red in our society also. Specially in local politics,  killing,  raping, sexual harassment,  corruption is  common phenomena in many areas of the country. In my country, You can see red thugs, blue fanatics and now a days you can see orange materialist also! There is so little room for green here.

I mostly consider myself as green, so think how days are becoming hard for me here to live with my values. Comparing to that, western countries like UK USA Germany etc has green friendly or at least Green tolerating society.

From social and political point of view, i think more about going from blue to orange. Green is still a long away from my country.

[Emerald]

28 minutes ago, TomDashingPornstar said:

@Emerald

I don't now Emerald, I think a lot of the difference has a lot more to do with people's hormones than you think.

Are you saying that you agree with the bias of the family court's system against men and for women, because women have the better hormones for nurturing children? If so, I disagree. 

Otherwise, I don't really see how hormones can even really relate to what I had said. I talked mostly about social patterns and power structures. I didn't say that men and women have the same hormones or that masculinity and femininity aren't real. 

This honestly feels a bit like a canned argument that doesn't really match my argument... but some other hypothetical argument that might come from a Green perspective.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Emerald

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Annoynymous said:

@Emerald I have just read your reply and preparing myself to read again. It's quite complex writing! I have never thought of this issue in the way you described. It has opened some new perspectives to me.

I assume that you are at stage yellow. Lovely to read

Thank you!  I'm glad that it gave you something to think about. 

[Zweistein]

@Annoynymous ? You sound like a very brave soul! I hope you can let your light shine and contribute to change in your country. 

[now is forever]

@Annoynymous is bangladesh comparable with india? sorry i don’t know much about bangladesh. even though it’s the 8th biggest country’s in the world...

Edited October 10, 2018 by now is forever

[Annoynymous]

1 minute ago, Zweistein said:

@Annoynymous ? You sound like a very brave soul! I hope you can let your light shine and contribute to change in your country. 

@Zweistein Thanks for the wish and compliment I wish the same. But at first i want to build myself and do sufficient amount of work to go up the spiral...  I have got many things to do in order to grow.

[Annoynymous]

1 minute ago, now is forever said:

@Annoynymous is bangladesh comparable with india? sorry i don’t know much about bangladesh.

Well comparable in terms of what? It will be better if you specify a bit. Thank you

[now is forever]

@Annoynymous well in sense of economics spiral. i assume that you want to go up into orange through economics? because you talked about evolving.

just had a picture of the small part i‘ve seen of india in my mind. and wanted to know if there are similarities - it’s a preconception, but maybe a helpful one. 

[TomDashingPornstar]

@Emerald

No.  But I do think hormones drive behavior just as much or more than social conditioning and culture.  Why do women only marry equal or up in sexual rank throughout all cultures during all time periods?  It's hormones.  Why do so many men get erections when their girlfriends cry.  I know most women don't get turned on when men cry, but a lot of us are sure ready to go when she does, and I know it's not just me.  Is that because of expectations or hormones?  For me it's hormones, just like body-positivity campaigns aren't going to help with erections either.

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by TomDashingPornstar

[Forestluv]

@Emerald I appreciate your views on gender, roles and power. 

One of the problems I see with inequality issues, in general,  is that the majority with power get so upset that "reverse-inequality" is not acknowledged. They get so contracted into this they can't see the bigger picture that inequality is disproportionate.

For example, my mother is obsessed with the idea of "reverse-racism". She gets so upset that reverse-racism is not acknowledged and talked about. Whenever the racism topic comes up, she always goes back to a minority woman she hired 25 years ago. The woman was a bad worker and my parents claim they had difficulty firing her because she was a minority. I acknowledge to my mother that reverse-racism exists and racism is wrong whether it happens to a minority person or white person. *However*, racism is disproportionately directly toward minorities. It's such a simple concept, yet my mother's white privilege is so strong that she can't see it. And she gets the luxury of not having to see it or deal with it on a daily basis because she is white. So, when she sees "Black Lives Matter" she gets upset and says "All Lives Matter". She just can't see the disparity.

I think the same dynamic is going on with how most men view gender inequality. They are obsessed with "reverse gender inequality" toward men and are unable to see that gender inequality is dis-proportionately against women. And since men have the majority of power, they get the luxury of not having to see it. So when this man sees "Women Gender Equality Matters" they get upset and say "All Gender Equality Matters". They just can't see the disparity.

I'm at a loss how to reveal social inequalities to help people advance upward on the scale. Sometimes it seems my efforts are counter-productive. It can be really discouraging at times. I appreciate your efforts - it gives me hope and motivates me to get better at this.

[Annoynymous]

17 minutes ago, now is forever said:

@Annoynymous well in sense of economics spiral. i assume that you want to go up into orange through economics? because you talked about evolving.

just had a picture of the small part i‘ve seen of india in my mind. and wanted to know if there are similarities - it’s a preconception, but maybe a helpful one. 

Well yeah. You have got it correctly. Country is now evolving towards orange in terms of economics. Big corporations are coming. For example, UBER came almost 2 years ago and conducting their business. Local companies are also emerging.

India is a very big country with large population. We are much smaller country in terms of size but we have almost 180 million population. 

Its true that country is evolving to orange but it will take more time to fully evolve as a whole. Still blue value runs high with some red features.

Politics here is mostly dominated by blue. Much of local politics are conducted by red values. Democracy is weak.

Most of the people (almost 90%) are muslim. Not all of them are fundamentalists, many of them are moderate muslims but still, Religious fanatics are visible. Religious values  can influence politics  here. 

Civil society is vocal but they are not 100% free from corruption. You can find some green in civil society although. But they are less in numbers.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Annoynymous

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, TomDashingPornstar said:

@Emerald

No.  But I do think hormones drive behavior just as much or more than social conditioning and culture.  Explain why women only marry equal or up in sexual rank throughout all cultures during all time periods.  It's hormones.  Explain why so many men get erections when the girlfriends cry.  I know most women don't get turned on when we cry, but I'm sure ready to go when she does, and I know it's not just me.  Is that because of expectations or hormones?  For me it's hormones, just like body-positivity campaigns aren't going to help with erections either.

 

Okay, first off why would men get erections when their girlfriends are crying? I don't think this is something that men typically get turned on by. It sounds more like a fetish to me. Maybe men might get an erection when their girlfriend is in a receptive or submissive pose... this feels very normal. Or perhaps to take that dynamic further into a BDSM kind of extreme dominance/submission situation... also feels normal, but a kinkier brand of normal. But crying = erection, I don't think is a common thing. So, I definitely don't think that's an aspect of male nature... or not that I've noticed anyway.

Also, women don't only marry equal or up. There may be a tendency of women to do this in general in terms of wanting a guy who has a good job. But my husband and I have equally low-paying jobs, even though he makes a bit more than me as he is a server at a nice restaurant and I'm a substitute teacher. But he got that job after we got together. 

What I've noticed in myself and my friends is that women usually seek out men who mirror them in terms of values or identity. Or they want a guy who is equal or slightly lesser in physical attractiveness so that they can be the peacock of the relationship. But women like men as a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. There is no particular ingredient that will make a man attractive to any given women. It's how all the ingredients come together, and the particular taste of the woman. 

So, I don't think your ideas about this dynamic actually show a lot of truth about how nature and nurture actually come together. It just feels like you're reading a bunch of Red Pill kind of stuff, which doesn't accurately reflect the core of masculinity... and especially doesn't reflect the core of femininity. 

But again, I'm not really seeing how your ideas about hormones and gender go together with most of the ideas that I've been talking about. Do you believe that society has one set "natural" way to go, and that this is the way that our society has been? And now all these "unnatural" movements like the body positivity movement are coming around and trying to change nature? 

If so, then you neglect to see the variety in social structures all throughout human history. Expression of masculinity and femininity all comes trough a cultural lens to have form. So, the expressions of the masculine and feminine are varied and always in flux. But the energies themselves are subtle, and remain unchanged. But because they are subtle energies, they have no expression on their own. So, they need cultural lenses to express themselves through. So, humanity has many different "naturals". 

Also, the body positivity movement doesn't have anything to do with erections. It has to do with people's ability to accept their own bodies for what they are and to feel good about themselves regardless of what they look like. It doesn't mean trying to convince other people that all body types are sexually attractive. It has to do with all body types being valid. 

 

[now is forever]

@Annoynymous mhhh complex. are you sure it’s impossible to start with more green values? i know how the discrepancy between the actual situation and green is. think about some cultural knowledge and how green export could be a way.

you see how problematic orange can get if it’s strictly orange...

Edited October 10, 2018 by now is forever

[Forestluv]

@TomDashingPornstar @Emerald

I'm a guy in my 40s and this is the first time I've ever heard of a correlation between male erections and women crying. I'm sure it happens, yet this sounds like a niche fetish to me. 

In contrast, I've heard a lot of people talk about getting turned on after arguing and how awesome "make-up" sex is. For both men and women. I'd say this is more common.