French Revolution and Spiral Dynamics

[CreamCat]

Freedom is an aspect of compassion. Think about slavery of the past. Legalizing 2D child porn would satisfy pedophiles without allowing them to hurt children. In japan and a few other countries, 2D child porn is legal.

I don't minimize sexual abuse. In my point of view, you are creating a lot of false positives. I care about actuality to see if children's freedom and that of pedophiles can be increased. When there is actual sexual abuse, I become angry. I just think that in some unknown configurations of society, it should be possible for the vast majority of children to engage in sex with adults safely. I want freedom to be maximized where it can be maximized partially because I am compassionate about people's freedom. This situation reminds me of a movie called minority report where people were locked in prison for damages that haven't happened yet.

I also suspect Green doesn't necessarily involve cracking down on pedophiles. It's possible that some Green people might actually share my opinions. Not all Green is the same. Is it possible that my Green involves freedom?

Edited October 10, 2018 by CreamCat

[Forestluv]

@CreamCat Again, I think you are minimizing the extent of harm caused when adults have sex with children. I think you are exaggerating rare cases. As well, I think you are placing too much emphasis on personal freedom over social welfare. 

Regarding porn. If 2D child porn was shown to alleviate the suffering of pedophiles AND reduce the amount of sexual child abuse - a healthy green would support it because it would increase overall social wellness.

[CreamCat]

24 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

As well, I think you are placing too much emphasis on personal freedom over social welfare.

A large part of social welfare is freedom. It's largely freedom from boss and starvation. It is also about prevention of crimes. Universal basic income will ensure freedom from boss and starvation. Basically, in a nutshell, social welfare is about preventing bad things from happening to people.

Universal basic income is an important goal of social welfare. Conditional welfare programs are often as good as nothing. Universal health care might become as important as universal basic income. But, I don't dogmatically advocate any of those policies. I just think of them as possibilities.

Also, I wouldn't condone any method that would increase actual crimes.

I suspect that under the current circumstances, it's not safe for most children to have sex with adults. Why do we not think about constructing a new future where the vast majority of children can safely have sex with adults? Perhaps, in a fully immersive virtual reality of the future?

I also suspect that freedom can be a Green value for some Green people. Perhaps, are you not quick to peg me as a fully Orange person? Also, are you sure you are being Green with regard to pedophile issues? No one is solidly Orange or Green across all aspects of life. I think being obsessive about wanting to be Green or any other stage of Spiral Dynamics puts the cart before the horse. Green is not some glorified destination where we should stay. It's not special. It's just a stage like any other.

Edited October 10, 2018 by CreamCat

[Forestluv]

@CreamCat Your views are more nuanced and complex than I originally thought. I see so many surface-level Orange vs Green positions that it's easy to peg someone as Orange too quickly. As well, I'm still centered in Green and working on my transition to Yellow - my Green can still get triggered when it appears that a group is being oppressed or marginalized.

I don't think your views are straight-up Orange, Green, Yellow etc. I think you've got an interesting mixture going. Some people, like Sam Harris, have interesting mixtures and integrations.

I have to get to work now and I'd like some time to contemplate a couple ideas that you raised. I'd like to revisit this discussion later.

[CreamCat]

28 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

My concern here is that porn would act as a form of visualisation which would reinforce the pedophile's problematic brain connection circuit each time in a nutshell.

I get that you say "if shown", but I guess this method would be maybe acceptable during a curing phase, amidst a treatment.

First, you're assuming that pedophile's brains are problematic without actually analyzing their brains. That's a value judgement of human ego like any other. In the similar manner, psychopathy is not a brain disease, but it is an evolutionary adaptation like any other. You're thinking that pedophiles (and psychopaths) have problematic brain connections because they seem to threaten you or your children.

Also, that's like saying heterosexual porn reinforces my brain's problematic connections each time. We better talk about actuality rather than vague theories. 2D child porns have been circulating for decades. I haven't heard that 2D child porns meaningfully contributed to crimes.

Does GTA 5 mess up with criminals' brains? Should we ban GTA 5? Did games like GTA 5 significantly contributed to starting wars? I surely killed thousands of people in GTA 5 without remorse. Does 2D child porn mess up with pedophilic criminals' brains? Should we ban 2D child porn? Do heterosexual rape porns reinforce assault toward women? Should we ban heterosexual rape porn?

Edited October 10, 2018 by CreamCat

[TomDashingPornstar]

@Etherial Cat @CreamCat

Schrodinger's cats?

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by TomDashingPornstar

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

My concern here is that porn would act as a form of visualisation which would reinforce the pedophile's problematic brain connection circuit each time in a nutshell.

I get that you say "if shown", but I guess this method would be maybe acceptable during a curing phase, amidst a treatment.

I agree.

This thread is evolving toward more nuance and depth. 

CreamCat raised a couple ideas that  originally made me uncomfortable - yet I want to contemplate some more. I have to get to work now, but I will revisit this thread later.

[CreamCat]

@Serotoninluv Sorry for taking up too much of your time. I hope you don't hate me for bugging you.

[now is forever]

14 hours ago, Annoynymous said:

he main point that i am trying to illustrate is that concepts of revolution is so so so unique that we may have to use different words in describing transition period instead of using the word 'Revolution'. Because it will be hard to even resonate.

(back to topic) really liked the sliced bread analogy  

what about to see a revolution more as an incision, a more peaceful  revolution more as a transition and an evolvement as a transformation?

Edited October 10, 2018 by now is forever

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

@Serotoninluv Sorry for taking up too much of your time. I hope you don't hate me for bugging you.

You're good. A couple of your ideas are pushing me into my "stretch zone" which is good. It's uncomfortable, yet it is where growth takes place. 

I originally assumed you had a generic Orange position, yet it is more sophisticated than that. I've gotta work and want to contemplate the ideas you raised a bit more. I think it's an opportunity for me to evolve. I'd actually rather continue this discussion now, than go to work. It's not a bother at all. This is part of what self-actualization is for me - to challenge my beliefs and be open-minded to other perspectives. 

I think the discussion regarding child abuse and social welfare is good, yet it is also hijacking the thread (which was on the French Revolution). If a robust discussion continues, we may need to take it to it's own thread.

 

[Annoynymous]

12 minutes ago, now is forever said:

(back to topic) really liked the sliced bread analogy  

what about to see a revolution more as an intersection, a more peaceful  revolution more as a transition and an evolvement as a transformation?

Maybe my notion of 'Peaceful' revolution has derived from stage green thinking. At the same time, as i am trying to evolve from green to yellow, i can see some of the complexity of human nature or system. 

Like leo mentioned about 60s revolution and its green essence. Need to study about that more. But without much deep thinking, i can say that it was 'peaceful',  if you compare it with french revolution, an orange one.

Comparing only to understand, not to demonize. Certain transition needs certain measures. Both violence and peace are necessary and part of reality, although the existential nature of both is unique.

I think all revolution are just recipe for transformation. The question is, what is the nature of that recipe.

French revolution was full of violence done by both parties (revolutionaries and oppressors)

Edited October 10, 2018 by Annoynymous

[CreamCat]

26 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

a bad pattern conditioned in their brain- which is the sexual attraction for kids.

You are assuming that sexual attraction for kids is bad. In the past, people used to think being gay was a disease. Gay brain was bad and had problems. To me, pedophilia is an unusual sexual orientation just like homosexuality, bisexuality, and so on. What is actually bad is child abuse. Thinking about having sex with children is not child abuse. Thinking about having rough monkey sex with women as a heterosexual man is not rape. I think about having various kinds of rough monkey sex with women every day, but I haven't assaulted women, yet. You can say the same about every heterosexual man. Actually, I haven't had sex with women, yet. In japan, a large portion of male population never had sex despite watching porn regularly. It's told that most pedophiles are just like us. They have sexual urge, but most of them can control it.

26 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

If the average, free porn website content gets you off, it most likely does. Have you seen how many men and women nowadays complains about how being exposed to low consciousness porn has distorted their sexuality?

Low consciousness porn is said to affect sexual performance, but it doesn't say anything about crimes. Almost every man watches porn, yet only a few of them commits actual rape or repetitive sexual harassment. I don't care much about porn's effects on sexual performance because being bad at sex is not a crime.

Edited October 10, 2018 by CreamCat

[now is forever]

@Annoynymous mhh yes. well i think french revolution was an incision - because it was a radical shift, but it backlashed. green revolution was a transition with certain revolutionary aspects it also backlashed but less strong and it was a rolling stone.

agree with you on the measurement part.

i didn’t count in the vietnam war though what was certainly an intersection, as all wars are incisions - whatever they might produce.

Edited October 10, 2018 by now is forever
confused incision with intersection ?

[Annoynymous]

10 minutes ago, now is forever said:

@Annoynymous mhh yes. well i think french revolution was an intersection - because it was a radical shift, but it backlashed. green revolution was a transition with certain revolutionary aspects it also backlashed but less strong and it was a rolling stone.

agree with you on the measurement part though. 

Pardon me for my about average language efficiency, i am not a native english speaker.

I will contemplate your point though. It's an interesting observation from you.  

My journey towards self actualization is a difficult one. I am a Bangladeshi. Its a country of south asia.

Most of the people here are not that much open minded Culturally speaking. They are mostly stuck at stage blue. As i am trying to evolve, i am finding it  difficult to do due to traditional and judgemental social structure of the nation.

Wish me luck!

Thank you.

[now is forever]

@Annoynymous good luck!

my english is more a denglish. guess yours is better .

so maybe all transitions are intersections, if you look over the shoulder.

Edited October 10, 2018 by now is forever

[now is forever]

@Etherial Cat he wants to say porn is an aggression release. he thinks it’s better to release sexual aggression in porn than to go out fulfilling these needs with the next best woman walking around the corner.

@CreamCat the problem about that thought is an educational one though if we talk about aggressive porn. coming along with an industry and the problem of media stretching into an do it yourself field. what makes it criminal again.

Edited October 10, 2018 by now is forever

[now is forever]

5 hours ago, Zweistein said:

What is needed so people start to see and understand different perspectives better? I kinda start to like the idea of classes in school regarding feminine & masculine "issues" ?. 

in that sense - sexual education is maybe not completely outdated...

question is if it would be sufficient in school? in a blue country it reeks more like biology class, the contrary of sex appeal.

so maybe the diy field could get interesting for some people...who don’t watch porn and are in green moving to yellow. a slightly exhibitionistic predisposition could be of advantage.

Edited October 10, 2018 by now is forever

[billiesimon]

This topic is very interesting.

The problem with moving from full orange (with zero traces of blue ideology) to green is that green feels A LOT like blue dogma. It has some kind of religious and ritual feel to it that's scary to an individualist.

Also our western recent history puts a lot of emphasis on the gaining of freedom and pushback against collectivism (world war II, cold war, and the history of indepedence gained from monarchies all over europe/north america. The value of freedom and personal responsibility is very strong in the west and this is what creates fear and distrust towards green, because it has that "cult" feel about it, like some kind of modern religion/traditionalism.

I'm using myself as an example, because I grew out of blue stage in my teenage years and this strong repulsion towards collectivism and group-think is sometimes triggered when I see green activism or green dogma. But I get it that it's just a phase, and I'm already halfway through green myself.

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, TomDashingPornstar said:

@Emerald Is there any area of society where you think maybe straight men don't have it better than everyone else?

 

That's an interesting question.

From the perspective of power dynamics, the answer is no. Straight white men do hold the most potential for power in society, and they are seen as default. So, because of the way people understand the world, straight white men are in the most optimal position to be in power. This doesn't mean that all straight white men get that power... but they are at least in the race for receiving the lion's share of the all the potential power if they can rank in the hierarchies of society. 

But power dynamics are only one perspective... and they aren't even the perspective to look at that will actually effectively "cure" the issues that happen within the power dynamics perspective.

But from the perspective of emotions and authenticity, the more the expectation of power and responsibility is place upon a person, they will have tremendous difficulties with being in touch with emotions and being authentic. There is a fear of losing one's status within the hierarchy if somebody feels obligated to have power. And men are strictly punished for not being "man enough."

I see this in a lot of men. So, they have issues with being in touch with their feminine side.

This causes Anima possession, where men basically repress their feminine side. Then their feminine side is in the Shadow and that feminine aspect of self is resentful because it's in the Shadow. So, this repressed feminine side desperately wants to A.) Seek revenge on the man who rejected it, by making him feel rejected. and B.) Be reintegrated. So, the Anima develops a push/pull kind of relationship with the man.

So, the Anima projects itself onto women as a whole group, and mirrors the same sense of worthlessness and rejection that it has experienced. And it manifests as a deep resentment of women who are seen as all-powerful purveyors of male worth and status... the desire for which is why the man rejects his feminine side to begin with. And every time a man is turned down by a woman, the scorn of the Anima is projected upon the situation making it feel much worse making him feel powerless in the same way she has felt when the man turned "her" down. 

Then, this is also coupled with a sexual obsession. This obsession comes from desperate desire to reconnect with the feminine side and reintegrate the Anima. So, the Anima projects itself onto certain women or sometimes a particular feminine ideal (aka hot chicks in general). So, there becomes an obsession with seeking sex with women because it is the only acceptable outlet they feel safe in being in touch with the feminine. 

So, this causes a simultaneous misogyny and sexual obsession rolled into one... which in turn creates many issues for women power-wise as it makes it more difficult for them to own their femininity and thus their power. The man's inner woman is too jealous to allow that to happen. 

So, being a man is not a walk in the park by any means. Many of the obstacles men have are quite difficult. But they aren't really related to the potential for social power. There is nothing in their image that stops them from being recognized in that way, which women don't get to have. But with that potential for power comes a lot of expectations, responsibilities, inauthenticities, and fears. And the potential social punishments for not matching up to the ideals of masculinity set out by society. 

[Forestluv]

5 hours ago, Zweistein said:

What is needed so people start to see and understand different perspectives better? I kinda start to like the idea of classes in school regarding feminine & masculine "issues" ?. 

IME, colleges/university "discussions" about controversial issues tend to be rational/logical debates in which both sides double-down on their belief and want to "win" the debate. This can strengthen someone's perspective and polarize groups further.

I think we would make more progress if there were more post-rational discussions.