French Revolution and Spiral Dynamics

[Annoynymous]

It's intriguing to see some insightful discussion that is going on here. But maybe we are loosing sight of the actual topic here.

I mean this topic is not for judging or blaming a particular stage. It's for understanding situations which triggers transition of stage and knowing features of it from spiral dynamic point of view.

I think this discussion can also be utilized as knowing one's own stage.

As leo said in his videos that we shouldn't judge too much of a particular stage because the main goal of all of us should be focusing on master the current stage in which we are in and transcend into the next.

Don't get lost into debates. Its a trap. 

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, TomDashingPornstar said:

And what rights might those be?  Where is the inequality in rights?

In Western countries there are no ineqaulities in rights. You are using outdated concepts.

Like I said, you are stuck in Orange so you will not understand. You don't want to understand.

Go read some history, kid. You speak of things way out of your league.

[SFRL]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Like I said, you are stuck in Orange so you will not understand. You don't want to understand.

Go read some history, kid. You speak of things way out of your league.

Well shit I studied to be a History teacher and I fully agree with @TomDashingPornstar.

[TomDashingPornstar]

@Leo Gura 

I'll read more history books, if you attend divorce court.

 

P.S.

I'm just pointing out that current feminism is an orange-based position nowadays, or at least the people you hear about in the news.  The good thing is, these people usually don't matter much in real life.

Edited October 10, 2018 by TomDashingPornstar

[CreamCat]

@Leo Gura What's your opinion on society's treatment of pedophiles? It would be interesting to know your position about this. Usually, people are not consistent with issues around pedophilia. Also, where are you on Spiral Dynamics?

@TomDashingPornstar Man, Leo is not even married, yet.

Edited October 10, 2018 by CreamCat

[SFRL]

4 minutes ago, TomDashingPornstar said:

@Leo Gura 

I'll read more history books, if you attend divorce court.

Understand now?

That's right. You can study the History books. 

But if you you have never soaked up the atmosphere of a Family Law courtroom in a liberal state like CA you are really missing the direct experience that we are talking about. 

[TomDashingPornstar]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Like I said, you are stuck in Orange so you will not understand.

Also, I've already been in full-blown stage green and eventually got burned, just like with any stage.  Fun times though.

Edited October 10, 2018 by TomDashingPornstar

[CreamCat]

@TomDashingPornstar I had been properly soaked up in stage green, too. I don't think I'm really stuck in Orange. I re-embodied Orange to deal with my life situation. I am not really stressed about progress and success for the sake of progress and success. But, I need some success to make living. Green is not well suited for focusing on life purpose with laser focus.

Edited October 10, 2018 by CreamCat

[Strikr]

@Leo Gura

are you spreading water on plants ? 

[Zweistein]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys are still not getting Green. You are looking at Green from Orange and failing to understand.

You must step outside your perspective.

Feminists are not fighting for women's rights over men's rights. They are fighting for equal rights.

The men's rights movement is not about equality, it's a reaction against equality.

Equality for an overpowered group looks like loss of power. Beause it is. Equality means men lose power. Just like equality means the tyrant loses power. Of course the tyrant will feel this is unfair and bad. Tough shit.

What is needed so people start to see and understand different perspectives better? I kinda start to like the idea of classes in school regarding feminine & masculine "issues" ?. 

[CreamCat]

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Go read some history, kid. You speak of things way out of your league.

That is demotivating. Perhaps, you should make a proper video to persuade people to learn history of certain topics.

Edited October 10, 2018 by CreamCat

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, CreamCat said:

@TomDashingPornstar Here's the ultimate challenge for limits of compassion. Would a Green person embrace pedophiles? Would LGBT acceptance movement embrace pedophilia to become LGBTP acceptance movement? How many Green people would feel compassion toward oppressed pedophiles? Nobody denies that there's obvious oppression of pedophilia in most countries. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a pedophile. I am a heterosexual man who's attracted to curvy women.

You are conflating two different issues. In this case it can cause harm to an oppressed group. This technique has been used to oppress members of the LGBT groups for decades. 

Your question is equivalent to asking: If we allow you to have sex with women, shouldn’t we allow pedofiles to have sex with children?

This question is absurd to you because you see heterosexual behavior as normal/natural and pedophilia as deviant. Linking pedophilia to LGBT is no different than linking pedophilia to your heterosexualty. 

The first step to advancing upward into green is to acknowledge that LGBT is a sexual / gender orientation that is as normal /natural as your male heterosexual orientation. It’s diffucult to do for stage Orange because it involves empathy and cultural relativism. If you seriously want to elevate your consciousness, get involved with the LGBT community and make human connections.

Regarding your second point: don’t conflate harmful criminal unethical behavior (pedophilia) with consensual ethical behavior. To advance to green, you will need to distinguish between the two. Green is not advocating for the inclusion of pedophilia into LGBT. This belief is locking you in Orange. Rather, it’s a different issue. 

Step outside LGBT and clear your mind. . . With pedophilia, a Green would have compassion for both the child victim and the pedophile. It’s easy for Orange to understand compassion for the child victim. So, let’s consider the pedophile. The vast majority of pedophiles were themselves abused as children. So we have compassion for them at this point. Abused children, especially sexually abused, often suffer into adulthood. They can be so damaged that hurt other people. A Green acknowledges the pain and suffering of both the child and adult. A question for Orange would be: at what point does your compassion for a sexually abused child end? On their 18th birthday? Yet their pain and suffering continues into adulthood. As well, neuroscience is revealing that the methylation patterns that regulate gene expression in the brain is altered after children are sexually abused. These abnormal gene expression patterns continue into adulthood. 

If you want to get a better understanding of the cycle of abuse, pain and suffering of everyone involved - watch the mivie Little Children”

Next, compassion for those that are suffering does not mean supporting abusive behavior. A Green dies not advocate for child abuse. A Green would support removing a pedophile from society because there is a high risk the person may abuse children again. A Green would want a pedophile to be put in a facilty to receive treatment. This person should be treated until it is determined their risk factor is no higher than the general population. Unfortunately, a pedophilia mindset is extremely hard to treat.

 

[CreamCat]

13 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

This question is absurd to you because you see heterosexual behavior as normal/natural and pedophilia as deviant.

I don't view pedophilia as deviant. I acknowledge it as a sexual orientation as much as I acknowledge LGBT as mere sexual orientations. I had plenty of time to contemplate about sexuality. Long before I acknowledged it as such, I didn't have strong opinions about pedophilia. They should be free to have sexual desires toward children although actual abuse is not ok for me. This conclusion was derived from principle of freedom and to some degree from compassion.

I feel pity for pedophiles.

I have a gay friend who taught me concepts of bisexuality, homosexuality, and so on.

It's other people who view pedophiles as deviants. I simply didn't know if Green accepts pedophilia, so I assumed some or many Green people may not accept pedophilia.

Also, don't assume that I have never been Green. I had been Green for many months until I had to revert to Orange due to financial constraints. When you are low on money, you have to save yourself first. I understand how Green thinks and feels to a degree. To a degree, I know how unhealthy Green unfolds in myself and others.

Edited October 10, 2018 by CreamCat

[Forestluv]

14 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

I don't view pedophilia as deviant. I acknowledge it as a sexual orientation. Long before I acknowledged it as such, I didn't have strong opinions about pedophilia. As long as pedophiles don't abuse children, they should be free to have sexual desires toward children. This is derived from principle of freedom.

It's other people who view pedophiles as deviants.

This would be a Red position. An adult having sex with a child is one of the worst traumas a child can experience. It is extremely harmful and can damage the individual for life.

What you are saying is akin to: “I think adults should have the freedom to torture children, as long as they don’t abuse them. For these adults, torturing children is their natural orientation and they should be free to do so”

A green recognizes there should be limits to personal freedom - when it harms other individuals and society

[CreamCat]

20 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

An adult having sex with a child is one of the worst traumas a child can experience.

I think that's not actuality. Milo yiannopoulos testified enjoying sex with an adult man when he was 13 years old.

I also think that some children can enjoy sex with adults.

There was a news about a female elementary school teacher who had sex with a 11 years old boy. The boy clearly enjoyed, but others condemned her. I felt pity for her. When I was 11 years old, I was slowly starting to develop as a man and would have enjoyed sex with an adult woman.

If a child was actually traumatized by sex, I would want punishment for the perpetrator. In my country, a drunk man violently raped a little girl in toilet. Her asshole was destroyed. Her digestive organ still doesn't function properly due to the damage he inflicted. I became angry at him for damaging her mind and body.

Uninformed principle can be misleading. I focus more on actuality. This is the reason that I questioned Green's limit of compassion. If they don't understand actuality of having sex with underage boys or girls, how can they be properly compassionate? Actuality needs to accompany compassion.

I also think having sex with prepubescent children is ok once those children understand what sex is and learn how to have sex safely. I even contemplated about sex license for prepubescent children.

Edited October 10, 2018 by CreamCat

[TomDashingPornstar]

 @Zweistein That's a great idea.  Much better than about an hour ago when someone claimed men have no issues.  Recognizing that men face problems too, many of which are completely unique from female issues is a fairly new concept in post-modern society.

 

[Annoynymous]

39 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

 

Also, don't assume that I have never been Green. I had been Green for many months until I had to revert to Orange due to financial constraints. When you are low on money, you have to save yourself first. I understand how Green thinks and feels to a degree. To a degree, I know how unhealthy Green unfolds in myself and others.

@CreamCat What makes you think that stage green people are not careful about their financial state? As far as i can understand, is that every stage at tier -1 has their own unique ways to address their survival issues. Finance is also a survival issue.

I think you have got more to study deeply about spiral dynamics because your assumption of 'being green but revert to orange due to financial constraints' seems untrue.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Annoynymous

[Forestluv]

@CreamCat You are introducing the issue of age of consent. A main reason that age of consent is established is because the vast majority of cases it’s abusive. Sure, you can cherry pick a case. Yet, the vast majority of cases that involve sex with an 11 year old are abusive.

[CreamCat]

@Serotoninluv That's mostly due to lack of sex education. Children are not educated about sex and how to have sex safely. That's why I contemplated about sex license for prepubescent children which is just like driving license.

In certain configurations of society, it is possible for most children to safely have sex. We probably just don't know such a configuration, yet.

What do you think of compassion as concern for people's freedom without allowing them to hurt others beyond a certain degree? Is compassion really separate from freedom?

The end goal, when I think of it, is to increase quality of life for as many people as possible. Compassion can be a mere aspect of quality of life. Can freedom be an aspect of compassion?

Why can't governments at least allow 2D child porn so that pedophiles are satisfied while no actual child is harmed? Japan and a few other governments allow 2D child porn, but most governments don't. Are you going to say that advocating for legalization of 2D child porn is a Red position?

Edited October 10, 2018 by CreamCat

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

@Serotoninluv That's mostly due to lack of sex education. Children are not educated about sex and how to have sex safely. That's why I contemplated about sex license for prepubescent children which is just like driving license.

What do you think of compassion as concern for people's freedom without allowing them to hurt others beyond a certain degree? Is compassion really separate from freedom?

I think you are minimizing the harm of sexual abuse to children. If you want to elevate from Orange-level personal freedom up to Green level empathy and compassion, I would recommend volunteering in a facility that helps abused children and women. IMO, I don’t think reading and debating would be sufficient for you. You seem to have some major Orange level blocks and would need to immerse yourself with direct experience to break through.