What is Actuality ? (Leo new vid)

[Shin]

Quick question:

When I put my hand in my back.

Even if I just feel the hand (not thinking about it), I am still imagining it right ?

I mean, you sense perceptions in your back, but you don't know if it's a hand, that's only being projected automatically from my mind right ?

Gonna go deeper anyway, but I thought I could ask you super awakened heroes ?

[Torkys]

@Leo Gura and anyone who can answer these (I haven't watched the full video yet):

1. When I looked at my hand, I saw it's non-existence more its existence - I saw it in a way which I haven't before; who's to decide observation is the "actual" one? Am I deluding myself?
2. Aren't the statements "What you observe is actual" and "This is my hand" concepts and imagination?
3. If I can observe my thoughts, aren't they actual?
4. Isn't trusting the feeling of realness just concept and imagination?
5. Won't 99% of people use this as an excuse to take their mind and beliefs to be torturers not worthy of Love?

Maybe supposed to help newbies more but I have made this distinction already.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Torkys

[Flammable]

@Shin  It is still real as it is a perception, just not one limited to sight. As long as you can directly experience anything, it is real. It is still not really a 'hand' which possesses 'handness', but rather a feeling without location.

Just a guess really - we seem to be quite attached to the sense of seeing as the ultimate portrayal of reality.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Flammable

[Yarco]

Okay, this video left me with a few concepts and ideas that I can't seem to reconcile. Sorry, this is going to be a disjointed rambling mess...

The video seems very focused on visual perception to determine what's actual. But how does it work with the other senses?

If I put my hand behind my back and wiggle my fingers, is that actually the hand, or just sensations of the hand?

If I see my girlfriend in the same room as me, she is actual. But if I turn around and she leaves my vision then she becomes just a concept. But if she speaks and I can hear her voice, is that actually her, or the only actual thing is the sound I am hearing? It's just a concept to infer the sound I hear is coming from my girlfriend?

All the things I think about other people are just concepts. Such as their personality, the fact they are conscious, their preferences and expected behaviors. Even the idea that other people exist is a concept. Their body is actual when I'm looking at it or touching it, but everything going on inside is just concepts and ideas. There is no person, there is just a physical body there but everything else is just different overlapping concepts working together to create the illusion of one. This creates a really weird, empty world. All living things are just actual hollow shells like every other object. Well, hollow is a concept. It seems like something more than what I see is going on, but I can't say what.

People aren't alive because life is just a concept, they are just pieces of flesh that are somehow animated. I can't even assume they are made of flesh/meat, meat is just a concept. 

Assuming people are alive is a concept. A living person and a dead body are actually the same thing  from my perspective, the only thing that separates them is concepts? They look the same, they feel the same, except one is not animated.

The same would be true for me, although obviously it's much harder to separate the illusion of my own self. Because it feels like I'm the one thinking and experiencing these things.

------------

 If the inevitable conclusion that I am supposed to come to is that there is no "me", then how can this approach work if it's so me-centric? I'm saying that the only actual things are in my immediate awareness. Like the whole universe only exists because I perceive it. At any given moment, the universe is only what I'm actually concious of.

But to function in life, I need to make assumptions. For example, if I actually put food in the oven and set a timer and go into the next room... I can reliably expect that my food will continue cooking and the timer will go off at the desired time. They still exist, to some degree. There is seemingly a continuity to things. I can leave my house and come back expecting everything to be where I left it. If I have pain inside my body, a doctor can cut me open and fix organs that are actually there.

Where does stuff come from? I can't assume the pen on my desk is made of plastic, let alone that it came from oil that was drilled out of the ground and manufactured into a pen in China and shipped across the ocean. All concepts. Does it matter where stuff comes from? It's just here.

Time is just a concept too... but I can't even wrap my head around that one.

How do I reconcile the fact that God is infinite (concept) with the fact that actual things are only in my immediate awareness? If we are to assume that God (concept) is viewing the world through every other set of eyes on the planet (concept), then isn't everything that any other being sees actual as well?

How can actuality be localized to my field of awareness? I guess that's my main question in all of this.

How do I know the hand is actual when I have to rely on my eyes to see it. Is seeing through my eyes a concept?

How do I know the actual is actual and not just another concept? If I was in virtual reality right now looking at my hand, that's not actually my hand. Literally nothing I could see or hear or feel would be actual. But how do I know that if I can't remember putting the virtual reality headset on? If I'm actually God that has slipped my body and mind on like a VR headset, how do I take it off?

(Btw thanks for the video, it's getting me to actually think hard and take time to evaluate this stuff instead of just watch videos. I feel like by asking these questions I'm banging my head up against a wall, but maybe actually about to break through. Don't worry, I know there are 30 more walls behind that one. Look forward to literally descending into madness to figure this all out.)

Edited October 9, 2018 by Yarco

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Torkys said:

 

1. When I looked at my hand, I saw it's non-existence more its existence - I saw it in a way which I haven't before; who's to decide observation is the "actual" one? Am I deluding myself?        What is non-existence. 
2. Aren't the statements "What you observe is actual" and "This is my hand" concepts and imagination? All statements are conceptual... from thinking. The actuality isn’t a statement, it’s without thought & concept.
3. If I can observe my thoughts, aren't they actual? What is actually the “ I “ and  “who” to which the thoughts are “my” thoughts?
4. Isn't trusting the feeling of realness just concept and imagination? No, being is realness, appearance yes. 
5. Won't 99% of people use this excuse to take their mind and beliefs to be torturers not worthy of Love? No.        ???? ?

 

[Torkys]

22 minutes ago, Nahm said:

What is non-existence. 

I meant having a reality. I saw that this "hand" is not a static thing and is different with each observation.

22 minutes ago, Nahm said:

All statements are conceptual... from thinking. The actuality isn’t a statement, it’s without thought & concept.

Maybe he elaborates on this later, but these concepts seem essential for us to take the things which are observed to be actual

22 minutes ago, Nahm said:

What is actually the “ I “ and  “who” to which the thoughts are “my” thoughts?

OML The rabbit hole I still fear to go down (even this emoji's "code" is ph34r [phear => fear] )

23 minutes ago, Nahm said:

No, being is realness, appearance yes. 

Can you elaborate on this?

Are you implying that appearance isn't real?

24 minutes ago, Nahm said:

No.

How so?

24 minutes ago, Nahm said:

???? ?

https://i.imgur.com/WAM4Rs7.mp4

(Love how he fails to explain what the hand actually is ❤️)

[Nahm]

49 minutes ago, Yarco said:

Where does stuff come from?    Infinite being appearing as finite objects, there’s no stuff coming or going.

Does it matter where stuff comes from? It's just here.    There’s no “stuff” which could “matter”. 

Time is just a concept too... but I can't even wrap my head around that one.       There is awareness of appearance of movement / changes, and then the added concept ‘time is passing’. Like the reverse of Inception’s top - all clocks serve to remind you it’s a dream; there is no such thing as time, if there was, why would we need clocks?

How do I reconcile the fact that God is infinite (concept) with the fact that actual things are only in my immediate awareness? The usual suspects.

If we are to assume that God (concept) is viewing the world through every other set of eyes on the planet (concept), then isn't everything that any other being sees actual as well? Don’t assume.

How can actuality be localized to my field of awareness? How could it not be? 

How do I know the hand is actual when I have to rely on my eyes to see it. Is seeing through my eyes a concept? See the actuality, not that the hand is “actual” and some other objects are or aren’t, but the actuality of the situation. This seeing is - remembering / knowing, not visual. A “third eye” seeing. 

How do I know the actual is actual and not just another concept? Drop all concepts.

If I was in virtual reality right now looking at my hand, that's not actually my hand. Literally nothing I could see or hear or feel would be actual. But how do I know that if I can't remember putting the virtual reality headset on? If I'm actually God that has slipped my body and mind on like a VR headset, how do I take it off? The usual suspects which let go of concepts.)

 

[Nahm]

13 minutes ago, Torkys said:

I meant having a reality. I saw that this "hand" is not a static thing and is different with each observation. ????

Maybe he elaborates on this later, but these concepts seem essential for us to take the things which are observed to be actual My sweet Torkiliscious, you are what is essential. WIthout concepts,...You.  Seen that movie “The Game” with Michael Douglas? 

OML The rabbit hole I still fear to go down (even this emoji's "code" is ph34r [phear => fear] ) LOL SWEET 

Can you elaborate on this? You are appearing as all things, all real appearances. The sense of “real” is not from the appearance of an object, but from the Being which the object is in actuality,  in a dream, that never happened. 

Are you implying that appearance isn't real? What does the word appearance mean? What does the word illusion mean? 

How so? It appears to be a hand. What is it actually? 

https://i.imgur.com/WAM4Rs7.mp4

(Love how he fails to explain what the hand actually is ❤️)

It’s God. No concepts. No thoughts. No dualities. No you. No physicality. No life. Nothing. Absolute surrender of everything. (Your tag line ?? ❤️)

 

[Sahil Pandit]

Very similar teaching's being explained here by Mr. Tolle 

[Torkys]

@Nahm I haven't seen the film. 

Thank you so much for the pointers! I love you! ♥ 

[Nahm]

@Torkys ❤️

[Shadowraix]

2 hours ago, Torkys said:

Maybe he elaborates on this later, but these concepts seem essential for us to take the things which are observed to be actual

The concepts are the map not the territory. The concepts help you understand and work with whats there in awesome ways. Mathematics has proven to be a great model to conceptualize.

But drop all conceptualization. All contextualizing. What is that? What is there?

[abrakamowse]

One of the best videos Leo did so far... IMO

[Shin]

7 hours ago, Torkys said:

@Nahm I haven't seen the film. 

Thank you so much for the pointers! I love you! ♥ 

Already cheating I see.

??

[Torkys]

@Shin Hey, but French Yoda!

There is nobody to cheat on

(but srsly all is one so you can only cheat on a self which ultimately doesn't exist )

[Shin]

16 minutes ago, Torkys said:

@Shin Hey, but French Yoda!

There is nobody to cheat on

(but srsly all is one so you can only cheat on a self which ultimately doesn't exist )

I'm not sure the grillfriend would agree with that.

[Source_Mystic]

 Leo should have stuck with actualization and studied the process of enlightenment on his own time until he got a  grasp on the fundamentals.  You are an  intellectual leo you absorb knowledge , yet enlightenment is not about knowledge or concept.  knowledge  is where your mind has been stuck since you started actualized.com absorbing knowledge from as many spheres as you can as fast as you can.

It has caused many problems here as people started in self-actualization and then followed you directly into a completely different discipline and you just chugged along and went back and forth confusing the shit out of a good 70% of the people here adding  concept after concept,  mental minusha and more intellectual concept toys for your followers to play with  and parrot back here.  Yet you did them a great disservice. you created a trap for all of the beginners to enlightenment work.  You fed them intellectualism knowledge and concept and then you expected them to progress in a completely different system using the same rules. 

When you clumsily said there was   "no brains"  I understood what you met even better than you did because I meditated for  decades  and because I  have a foundation in zen. Then I wrote a very detailed post about concept,  language  mental constructs and the difference between the actual and the symbolic world of language .  IT  was not revived well because every one was so focused on your clumsy attempt to describe something you had not fully internalized yet.

Now three years later  you stand here with all you misguided and confused followers  and finally get to something that should have been a fundamental lesson.  

You are not a good teacher of the process of enlightenment and from  what I am seeing from the past and now you took to many short cuts using drugs. Witch shows your sloppy haphazard way you try to teach enlightenment.

You should have stuck to the sphere of  knowledge and the world of the intellectual and actualization because you have given your followers the same disease you had and continue to have regarding  enlightenment practices. 

The process of enlightenment is not about adding knowledge  it is reductive is strips away until there is nothing left but the actual.

The very fact that it took you three years to breach this topic is shameful.

The people that hold up this web sight that understand the process of enlightenment had that understanding before they came here and should seriously think about if they want to be associated or waste there time with a teacher  that is building his brand wearing a mask of accomplishment,  when in fact , you are just fumbling along clumsily winging it when it comes the process of enlightenment.

This place has become a trap for too many  as they  try to absorb as much knowledge as they can as fast as they can while simultaneously pursuing the process of enlightenment which has  the completely opposite mechanism to reduce knowledge to eliminate concept and to increase awareness.

Most of the threads are not answered in a constructive manner and are this type of pseudo intellectual mystical spiritualism,  extrapolated from Leo's videos instead of experienced,  processed and integrated by themselves  personally. 

I have been around I have read threads asking questions  that noone bothers answers adequately.   I have addressed them individually in pm and I always give them this digital copy of this book because it gives  the basics at the beginning and cuts though the mental shit and intellectual land mines leo  throws at you  every week.

so please if you want to move forward and actually understand the fundamentals now instead of three years from now stop depending on leo as a guru and read this. It is free legal digital copy in the public domain.  It is on the top of my book list yet.  I will not charge you for it.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.106370/page/n5

This best book on zen it is not watered down it will help you understand the conceptual illusion we are all trapped in and how to move past that. It is also written by D.T. Suzuki an accomplished scholar that spoke fluent Japanese Chinese  and English and lived and studded  with monks in a monastery. Without this man and his books zen would not even be a word in the English language.

This book is out of print but this is a free legal digital copy my wife found me has been ironically archived in  in India . I have read this book three times  in my life  and I can say it is the best book on the enlightenment process i have ever read. this copy has a few spelling errors due to a non English speaking person translating it in to eBook format. it is nothing that a critical thinker can not easy mitigate or just read it in the direct facilely copy taken directly from the book every there pages or so that contains no errors.

 

I challenge anyone her to go look at Leos responses the bulk of them not just one all.  Go dig see what you find. how one sentence responses are what he considers adequate. The truth is leo stands on the shoulders of the people here that do know better than him. He reads others theory's and regurgitates them for you weekly.  When will leo ever produce a original work instead standing on others shoulders  parroting theory's  and concepts? leo is a mask the person he shows you is not real. If he was sincere he would actually spend some time here counseling teaching and aiding in a meaningful way. He does not do this as you can see if you look at his responses to your questions.

 

That is all I have to say

Be wise and and take the path with the least amount of confusion.  seek out teachers that know the information and have internalized it  instead of ones stumbling though it.  Even this video does not make it clear. . "Just keep staring at you hand and you will get it"  take up the practice of navel gazing while you are at  it and solve the mystery of belly button lint.

Good luck in all that you do

Goodby

@Leo GuraThe user @egoless has been banned for spreading misinformation about nonduality.

In the future, I will be banning more people who keep talking shit about things they do not have direct experience of.

This forum is not a zone to spout off all manner of falsehood under the banner of free speech. This kind of devilry will not fly here.

If you don't agree, tough titty, find yourself some other corner of the web to shout your BS to.

People who keep spreading JP's BS will also be banned. I expect better of you guys.

What misinformation did he spread ? So I and all critical thinking individuates can assess for myself if you are right or wrong.  If you will not state the MISINFORMATION  so people can decide for themselves you will be perceived as a dictator.  If you are going to start banning  people you might want to explain exactly why.  because when more and more people start disappearing because they disagree with you well that will be  actualized.orgs  downfall. 

I guess form your standpoint now getting rid of trouble makers instead of talking to them and resolving issues is a tactical move on your part. How many hours did egoless post and help others here how many hours did he help your brand and draw others in.  How many post did he make? i see all his post are still here for you to Profit off of.   Well  not with me I have hidden 95% of my post and all my original content off this sight what is left is personal help I gave individuates or things I really do not care about.

If you would like to ban me  feel free I  have not posted directly on your forum and I  just help others in pm and it is not because I want to take your followers I do not want anything or anyone from this sight because I view you and your followers and influence  as fruit from the Poisonous tree   tree. You have 70% of the people here so goddam confused and so invested in you intellectual concept traps only the ones that are new to enlightenment are the ones I could help. the rest are so indoctrinated to the cult of leo I can not unfuck there minds. As for the other 30% that have acquired some  enlightenment experiences they all ready had the tools before they got here. And to them like me you have nothing to offer. As I see though the mask of @Leo Gura.

So disappear me if you will let the mass banning began I will take it as a compliment at this point.  

All of my experience was hard earned though years of practice.

Your biggest mistake was adding enlightenment to actualized.com You are quite adept at self actualization because you are intellectual and the world of concept is your play ground. That is the very reason you will stall in your process of enlightenment that continues to be you biggest weakness and trap. Attachment to information no not attachment addiction to information. until you over come that you will not go any farther.

 

If you are smart you will stop supporting a person that hides behind knowledge and produces nothing of any consequence himself you think after all that reading all that cross referencing at the least he could do is come up with some unique points of correlation and some original ideas. Yet that is not the case he still is a cliff notes version of everything he reads.

I am completely done with this sight and anyone that has to do with it.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Source_Mystic

[SoonHei]

to all: anyone doing this hand watching exercise have any understanding grow or any significant rising of awareness yet?

[Shin]

25 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

to all: anyone doing this hand watching exercise have any understanding grow or any significant rising of awareness yet?

It's been 4 days dude.

Let's just take it as a nice one night stand ?