Why does sales have to be so manipulative?

[7thLetter]

Not saying its wrong or anything but being exposed to a lot of salespeople pitching their course, their products, themselves, etc. often makes me question it.

Sales is one of those career paths that make people A LOT of money. Whether its a sales job or being an online entrepreneur selling a product. They do very impressive numbers I’m not going to lie. But what I’m talking about here is, why does it all have to be so manipulative? I understand that its done in order to get the sale, but I often think that when people use manipulation, whatever they are selling, isn’t much of value. If something truly was of value, then the product or opportunity should sell itself without anyone having to give an incredible pitch on it.

For example, let’s look at people who run MLM/pyramid scheme businesses. There’s a obviously a lot of selling that goes on in this business, because its a shit opportunity. “Pay $499 to change your life. Travel the world.” “$499 is chump change! We all had reckless night outs that costed us over $499!” Deep down I think they know that their products or services are shit so they have to manipulate people into buying it. And then with pickup its the same thing, manipulate girls into sleeping with you. It has to be manipulative because the girl will often resist because she doesn’t want to be seen as a slut, etc. Ok but it just seems to me that the fact that someone uses manipulation makes it seem like the opportunity to get with him, holds no value.

Anyways, I think I’m answering my own question here, but I’m sort of looking for someone to agree that manipulation is often used in order to “trick” someone into buying something that doesn’t hold as much value as they make it seem to be. The reason why I’m making this post is because I’m interested in an online business opportunity, so I’ve been looking around for information and courses in order to learn the how to. There’s a good Youtube channel that teaches this stuff and sells a course for $497. But for them to sell the course that hard makes me question it. To me it seems so manipulative. Maybe they understand that theory isn’t as valuable as action? Maybe the business opportunity isn’t as difficult as they make it seem to be? Whatever it is I’m not sold on it. One of these people on Youtube actually shows how much he makes from selling courses. He has a video telling us that he’s made over $200K on the day he released his online course. That is impressive. So if the business opp is so great, then what about selling courses? 

Anyways, enough rambling here.

Thoughts?

[bejapuskas]

@7thLetter  It is really hard to provide so much value that the people just wont help themselves but buy your product, Leo does a good job at that in my opinion. He wont manipulate people to buying his courses like crazy, he first provides his knowledge and than mentions it in the part where most people stop the video. His content also isnt about hype and rational things that resonate with orange, blue and green people, which are the majority. They will only sell to people, that are willing to invest. 

If you compare this to someone like Tai Lopez, Dan Lok, Grant Cardone... they are just manipulators in my opinion.

[7thLetter]

@bejapuskas Exactly. But I mean we can’t really blame the Tai Lopez or Dan Lok because they just have a different goal in mind than Leo. Tai Lopez is about acquiring more externally, Leo is about acquiring more happiness and fulfillment. So if we’re comparing the two, I think we can both agree that Leo probably doesn’t make as much as Tai Lopez. So there’s no right or wrong here but its basically like, if you want more money then follow how Tai does business. If you want more fulfillment then follow how Leo does it.

I agree with what you said in the first sentence. Leo does a really good job at it providing a TON of free content. Honestly with the amount of value he has provided, at this point he could be charging us for the recent videos he puts out and I would probably invest it almost all of it. He could make a ton of money these videos but he chooses not to. So back to comparing Leo to Tai Lopez and them, I feel like the Tai Lopez can use a bit more of what Leo does with providing more value. When watching videos of these online entrepreneurs, they often provide a tiny bit of value then they start selling the course. Which I personally find annoying, it doesn’t sell me at all. 

[bejapuskas]

@7thLetter I did not say that I blame these people. They are just manipulative to their audiences. They just get a bunch of orange people to watch their free content and then use the keywords to make them buy their products. Tai Lopez maybe makes many people read but Leo das more than that, just to a smaller group of people. Dan Lok and Grant Cardon are just money chasers from my point of view. That doesnt mean there is nothing to be learned from them!

[7thLetter]

@bejapuskas Didn’t say you said you blame them. Just pretty much saying we can’t blame them for how they do business because we all gotta make a living somehow. I guess the conclusion here is that the best approach is to have a balance between the Tai and the Leo approach.

[bejapuskas]

@7thLetter From some point of view, you might say that the more orange approach to business is unhealthy for society most of the time. I mean, it lowers their consciousness. If you dont need so much money and you are a minimalist, Leos approach might be just fine, it all depends on you  

[7thLetter]

@bejapuskas Well I mean if you think about it, it can also increase people’s consciousness in a way. The world is perfect the way it is, society is evolving at its own pace, and for everyone to all of a sudden approach life the way Leo talks about isn’t the solution. People need to go through a process in order to reach higher levels of consciousness. Think about how society went from biege all the way to now which is Orange/blue. They had to go through a process which showed them the limitations of the lower levels in order to move up the different stages. With society being at Orange/Blue, it is perfectly fine here because with enough marketing, manipulation, religion, etc. after several more years we will realize the limitations of it all in order to move above Orange. 

[bejapuskas]

@7thLetter Thats right. It all depends on what colour you are in. I am not falling for it anymore... Many people might and probably should to get away from their false beliefs.

[7thLetter]

@bejapuskas Not sure what you mean here, but last post I guess I was talking more about society as a whole. As individuals yes, we should look to self-actualize in order to move up the different stages, “faster”, or in a shorter amount of time than the average human being. Although of course we still need to go through a process of living life in these lower stages for several months or years in order to move to the next one.

[bejapuskas]

@7thLetter Arent you affected negatively by group thinking? I might be wrong...

[Joseph Maynor]

When the motive becomes making money, that's where the manipulation starts.  If people did what they loved without the motive of making money, we would see a totally different outcome.  Imagine someone selling and marketing something without the motive to make money off of it.  It would look very different. 

I.  Now, here's a couple of questions for you to ponder:

1. Would people even be doing what they're doing if they didn't make money off of it?  Isolate a particular person and inquire into that case.
2. Take each person who's a do-gooder in the world making money off of that.  Would they be doing what they're doing if there was no money in the equation?

II.  Now, here's a couple of questions for you to Contemplate:

1. Would I sell and market any services without the incentive of making money off of them?
2. Would I become a do-gooder in the world if there was no money in it for me?

Edited October 6, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[7thLetter]

@bejapuskas I guess it depends on what you’re looking for. If you want to be like everyone else, then follow the herd. Go to school to work 9-5 like everyone else. Go spend hundreds of dollars going to pointless sporting events because everyone else does it.

If you want to increase your happiness, your level of consciousness, your level of fulfilment in life then that pretty much requires you to become more independant. Because not everyone is like that, so you have to depend on yourself in order to create these results for yourself. Your mom isn’t going to do it for you, the news won’t teach you, the sports on TV won’t teach you, its all on you. But of course there are groups or people that can help you with this stuff so in that case its all about finding the right people.

One example though of group thinking affecting you negatively is following a group in trading financial markets. To be a good trader, is to be one that doesn’t follow everyone else. You make your own analysis, and your own decisions. When you follow everyone else its easier to make impulsive trades, which lead to losing a lot of money. So psychologically the individual is affected “negatively” when following a group. For example the group says buy gold at 83.6, so the individual puts all his money into this signal and then ends up losing all his money. So definitely being in a group or following a group has some sort of psychological affect on anyone.

[Hellspeed]

Without a Lie, the mind driven won't buy, because the mind driven, are actually using a Lie for their purposes and life without being conscious about it. 

[Joseph Maynor]

Just now, Hellspeed said:

Without a Lie, the mind driven won't buy, because the mind driven, are actually using a Lie for their purposes and life without being conscious about it. 

I think you can sell something genuine, but you're not gonna do it neurotically.  The problem is need for money introduces a new variable in that.  Let's say for example, I wanted to sell my personal development book.  Ok, well it would make a difference if I were doing that as a side-hobby or doing that to put food on my table.  If I were doing it as a side-hobby maybe I would be ok selling 20 copies or none at all.  If I were trying to put food on my table with my book, maybe I would need to sell 2000 copies.  If I write a book, I'll sell it, but at the same time I won't give a shit if people don't buy it too.  The value to me has already been exhausted which was was in writing the book itself.

Edited October 6, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Hellspeed]

@Joseph Maynor Pointless

[Joseph Maynor]

Just now, Hellspeed said:

@Joseph Maynor Pointless

The great Philosopher David Hume famously complained that his new book "'The Treatise of Human Nature' fell stillborn from the press."  Nobody wanted it.  But it turned out to be one of the most influential books ever published.  

Most of the books that sell well nobody knows about in 100 years.  It's just a bunch of rubbish.  A big pile of steaming nothing.  

By the way, Hume wrote 'A Treatise of Human Nature' when he was 28 years old!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Treatise_of_Human_Nature

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume

Edited October 6, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[universe]

Watch this documentary on Edward Berneys 

 

In short, to get people to buy things that they want and not only things they need the consumer was born.

Now Im not to tell what came first, the need for people to be consumers or Edward Berneys PR tactics. Either way, people became individualistic, allowing for identification with being a consumer which helped democracy & capitalism to succeed.

 

7 hours ago, 7thLetter said:

If something truly was of value, then the product or opportunity should sell itself without anyone having to give an incredible pitch on it.

I guess you know that some form of marketing is needed, otherwise no one would know the product exists. Now imagine you do some marketing. You have to invest money to get eyeballs (or time). Would you rather use a pitch that creates 1% conversion or would you rather use an incredible pitch that gives you 10% conversion?

Edited October 7, 2018 by universe

[7thLetter]

@Joseph Maynor @Hellspeed @universe Lol guys, If you read my post you would know that I understand "why" it has to be manipulative. The "why" is obvious to me. I was just looking for a deeper answer or basically validating the idea that often times manipulation is used when trying to trick someone or something into something that doesn't hold as much value as they make it out to be. And whoever the manipulator is, understands that deep down whatever they are selling, is a load of shit. For example McDonalds, I guess the advertising isn't really in your face about the food but the manipulation is there, and deep down they know their food is shit. Network marketers, their opportunity and products are shit so they have to manipulate. Products on sale, usually when a product is on sale its shitty, so they have to get rid of it quick. Pickup artists manipulate girls because.. You get the point.

Me personally, in the bathroom at my workplace I manipulate fruit flies by creating an apple cider trap that causes them to die. And I've done a bit of sales in the past so of course I understand why manipulation exists and how it works. Again, pretty much was looking for someone to say deep down they know their stuff is shit so they have to give an amazing pitch on it so it sells. Deep down I know the fruit fly trap is shit, the flies think its free food, but then they die. So I'm basically McDonalds here manipulating consumers into buying my shitty food, eventually they will die off of it.

@Shiva Generally speaking most of the time it is. Of course there's Leo who has a different approach.

Edited October 7, 2018 by 7thLetter

[bejapuskas]

@7thLetter  I am now working on transcending green and orange moving deeper into yellow. I am also helping my friends at school and hobbies to understand spiral dynamics, which gives me an opportunity to become a better public speaker. I am also thinking about becoming more independent every day, like cooking my own food, making some money myself etc... I am getting out of that group think quite nicely, hope you are too!  

[Leo Gura]

Sales can occur at any stage of the Spiral. If your sales is manipulative, that's because the stage you are at is manipulative.

Who you are colors everything you do, from sex, to spirituality, to entertainment, to sales.

Orange people have no problem with sleazy used car salesmen tactics, just like stage Red people have no problem taking a baseball bat to your knee caps.