The Horror of Consciousness: The Denial of Reality Through Spiritual Belief

[Violinpracticerdude]

http://www.unspirituality.com/horror-consciousness-denial-reality-spiritual-belief/

 

A great article from Unspirituality that demonstrates how people escape from reality with religious and spiritual beliefs. What is your take on the article? Whether or not you agree with his rationalist views it IS true that with religion and spirituality people escape from the horrors of reality and the horror of being conscious of this chaotic and violent existence.

[Nahm]

@Violinpracticerdude

I’ve watched his videos and read his website. The first 2 paragraphs on Stairway To Heaven were good. The rest is limited to duality. Either he doesn’t know this and should look into it, or he does know this and he’s making a lot of money not actually contributing anything, just getting people like you to watch and spread his misinformation. 

The real question is, why are you so interested?  Are you commiserating with him, and looking to grow the club?

Are you investigating anything he says, for yourself, through research and or self inquiry?

[Telepresent]

@Violinpracticerdude I haven't read that particular article but I am very familiar with Zzzen. All I can say is that he comes from a definite sense of morality, which lays the foundation of what he calls Horror (I assume)

I don't know who what or where he is, but I totally think that 99% of seekers are after comfort, which is what his link seems to talk about. 

He's smart, capable, confident, but in my opinion he stopped

[Violinpracticerdude]

27 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Violinpracticerdude

I’ve watched his videos and read his website. The first 2 paragraphs on Stairway To Heaven were good. The rest is limited to duality. Either he doesn’t know this and should look into it, or he does know this and he’s making a lot of money not actually contributing anything, just getting people like you to watch and spread his misinformation. 

The real question is, why are you so interested?  Are you commiserating with him, and looking to grow the club?

Are you investigating anything he says, for yourself, through research and or self inquiry?

I've actually spoke with him through E-mail and while he never asked me to spread his stuff, I believe that Leo and the Actualized.org community are good-intentioned but mislead, and so I like to post his stuff here to wake you guys up and challenge your views. Note that I'm spreading his stuff because I think it's useful.

I've thought about his stuff and I mostly agree with it. Although I'm certainly not spiritual at all it's interesting how he redefines spirituality from a natural perspective whereas Leo spouts nondual nonsense that's even dangerous, such as saying that psychedelic drugs "enlighten" you.

For years I've wondered if there's a supernatural world but all "proofs" of it just fell flat and I've also noticed how New-Age spiritual people say nonsense about reality. His videos on New-Age spiritual whackos are interesting and he can really point out how people WANT to believe in crazy things.

Whether you agree with his views or not, he's definitely right in that people are susceptible to crazy beliefs and even WANT to believe in things such as you're a soul in a body, even though science says otherwise.

Is it not possible that Leo himself is spreading misinformation? Unspirituality could very well be malevolent and laughing at me getting him views, but so could Leo, although I believe that Leo has nothing but the best intentions. But even with noble intentions he seems to be misleading a lot of people, promoting pseudoscience and getting people to do drugs.

Thanks for your reply.

[Nahm]

(I trust you’re laughing??❤️)

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, Telepresent said:

he stopped

That’s how it appears to me also. Unfortunately, the stopping short & the morality points to some pretty bad trauma. Happy for him that he has made something for himself out of it though. Love to see his content after ‘going the distance’. 

 

 

[Violinpracticerdude]

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

That’s how it appears to me also. Unfortunately, the stopping short & the morality points to some pretty bad trauma. Happy for him that he has made something for himself out of it though. Love to see his content after ‘going the distance’. 

 

 

I had left unfortunately because I had had to go somewhere. I do believe that Unspirituality has great content and Leo, while good-intentioned, is making some big mistakes. I appreciate our discussion.

[Consilience]

What’s really ironic about the idea that spirituality is escapism is that for me, I literally hit the limit of rationality and modern science which pushed me to explore alternative explanations of reality and consciousness. It had zero to do with escape and everything to do with discovering truth. You should watch Leo’s blog on metaphysics and epistemology.

 

Look into the hard problem of consciousness, contemplate the true profundity of the idea that the map is not and can’t ever be the territory by definition, really wrap your mind around the fact that symbolic representation is always SYMBOLIC, eg not the thing it represents. Science, language, rationality are contingent upon ralationships and concepts, they are LITERALLY nothing more the constructs within the domain of mind. Reality is being itself though, not mental activity.

 

Best advice I could give is go down the rabbit hole of rationality. You’ll eventually become so rational you’ll have no choice but to see the limits, and flaws of logic and reason and why using the traditional systems of thought you’ve been programmed with since birth wont cut it if you want to really understand the absolute nature of reality.

 

And in the end, become so rational you become a mystic because that’s where it will ultimately lead. 

[Shin]

Do you guys realize all those articles and debates are just here to distract you ?

You do right ?

[StephenK]

10 minutes ago, Consilience said:

What’s really ironic about the idea that spirituality is escapism is that for me, I literally hit the limit of rationality and modern science which pushed me to explore alternative explanations of reality and consciousness. It had zero to do with escape and everything to do with discovering truth. You should watch Leo’s blog on metaphysics and epistemology.

 

Look into the hard problem of consciousness, contemplate the true profundity of the idea that the map is not and can’t ever be the territory by definition, really wrap your mind around the fact that symbolic representation is always SYMBOLIC, eg not the thing it represents. Science, language, rationality are contingent upon ralationships and concepts, they are LITERALLY nothing more the constructs within the domain of mind. Reality is being itself though, not mental activity.

 

Best advice I could give is go down the rabbit hole of rationality. You’ll eventually become so rational you’ll have no choice but to see the limits, and flaws of logic and reason and why using the traditional systems of thought you’ve been programmed with since birth wont cut it if you want to really understand the absolute nature of reality.

 

And in the end, become so rational you become a mystic because that’s where it will ultimately lead. 

Well put.

[Consilience]

@StephenK Thanks!

[Shadowraix]

5 hours ago, Consilience said:

What’s really ironic about the idea that spirituality is escapism is that for me, I literally hit the limit of rationality and modern science which pushed me to explore alternative explanations of reality and consciousness. It had zero to do with escape and everything to do with discovering truth. You should watch Leo’s blog on metaphysics and epistemology.

 

Look into the hard problem of consciousness, contemplate the true profundity of the idea that the map is not and can’t ever be the territory by definition, really wrap your mind around the fact that symbolic representation is always SYMBOLIC, eg not the thing it represents. Science, language, rationality are contingent upon ralationships and concepts, they are LITERALLY nothing more the constructs within the domain of mind. Reality is being itself though, not mental activity.

 

Best advice I could give is go down the rabbit hole of rationality. You’ll eventually become so rational you’ll have no choice but to see the limits, and flaws of logic and reason and why using the traditional systems of thought you’ve been programmed with since birth wont cut it if you want to really understand the absolute nature of reality.

 

And in the end, become so rational you become a mystic because that’s where it will ultimately lead. 

Yep. +1 A lot of people who criticize this stuff hasn't actually put deep thought and effort into pursuing this stuff. So they see the very surface level. Its like a kneejerk interpretation without truly trying to figure out what the person means. 

Viewing nonduality through a materialistic lens is like trying to see the other side of a 1 sided window from the blind side.

Prior to nonduality I was a very skeptical atheist. I pursued nonduality solely because I wanted to understand this perspective being shared and just under a year of following this path I have found great progress.

 

11 hours ago, Violinpracticerdude said:

Leo spouts nondual nonsense that's even dangerous, such as saying that psychedelic drugs "enlighten" you.

Thats not dangerous in of itself. Psychedelic drugs can genuinely give you a lot of insight. For instance it was psychedelics that showed me I blindly followed my culture. Such as what was and wasn't proper attire for certain situations. Thats not based in fact thats a subjective opinion based in culture. A lot of our morality also derives from that. This is something you can rationalize even from a hard materialist perspective. It strips a lot of social programming and you can dig very deep into yourself.

Its been stated many times to

1. Do your research before doing a drug.

2. Psychedelics can definitely give you delusional thoughts. This is why the integration period in sobriety is important.

3. Psychedelics aren't guaranteed to enlighten you. They simply just have a high capacity to do so.

You can give advice after advice on how to do a drug safely but there will always be people who don't heed warnings. Which at that point I'm not going to blame Leo for it. Psychedelics for this kind of work has been used for centuries. Probably longer.

If you shrug off psychedelics because its a drug then you are simply putting too much value into sobriety over altered states of consciousness. Neither is more accurate than the other  

Edited October 5, 2018 by Shadowraix

[Flammable]

@Violinpracticerdude  We trust neither Leo, nor Unspirituality - mostly a gut feeling and direct experience. They (Leo & Unspirituality) are just pointers to things you might want to explore to see whether they are full of shit or not. 

Trusting a few sentences and believing in them will not bring you anywhere 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Flammable

[Hellspeed]

Indeed, society works this way. 

True spirituality and true yoga are long gone from the spiritual and religious books. 

What we get in society are badges and survival kits. 

True transcendence, nobody speaks about IT.  

And there is more, those who started to see glimpses on how reality works they think they are enlightened already, hahahahaha, hilarious. 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Hellspeed

[Emanyalpsid]

@Violinpracticerdude

Hey dude, you're basically shouting to people in a church that God does not exist. Here they all believe they are god, or infinite consciousness or absolute infinity, because of their non-duality experience and their believe in enlightenment. They all abandoned reality to stay in their mind bubble, thinking it is all consciousness. Spare your time and energy, they are beyond salvation. I also tried to reach them with no results. Read these topics and see how they, by ignoring reality, are attached to their believe in infinite consciousness because they do not understand the nature of it. They believe in a truth (infinite consciousness), which they defend by coming up with arguments, instead of focussing on reality. So, they are all happy in their minds as long as they don't have to deal with reality, by ignoring it or dismissing it as ignorant. I trew everything out of reality at them, but they keep holding on.

https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/25468-the-definite-guide-to-non-duality-enlightenment-and-the-nature-of-reality/

https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/25857-the-egg-experiment/

https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/25637-leo-guras-sick-logic-on-happiness-youtube/

There is a test however to verify if consciousness is infinite or that it is created by the brain; by slamming someone on the head with a baseball bat to see which prevails; consciousness or the brain. However, while they are so convinced, no one volunteers to take this test... I wonder why

The difference is, they will stay on this forum and you will leave. This is their Church.

[StephenK]

3 minutes ago, Emanyalpsid said:

@Violinpracticerdude

... they are beyond salvation.

Daaamnnnn bro, I didn't know you were dishing out salvation! I gotta get me some, since I'm just a poor ol' non-dualist . Where dat salvation at?

[Violinpracticerdude]

1 hour ago, Emanyalpsid said:

@Violinpracticerdude

Hey dude, you're basically shouting to people in a church that God does not exist. Here they all believe they are god, or infinite consciousness or absolute infinity, because of their non-duality experience and their believe in enlightenment. They all abandoned reality to stay in their mind bubble, thinking it is all consciousness. Spare your time and energy, they are beyond salvation. I also tried to reach them with no results. Read these topics and see how they, by ignoring reality, are attached to their believe in infinite consciousness because they do not understand the nature of it. They believe in a truth (infinite consciousness), which they defend by coming up with arguments, instead of focussing on reality. So, they are all happy in their minds as long as they don't have to deal with reality, by ignoring it or dismissing it as ignorant. I trew everything out of reality at them, but they keep holding on.

https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/25468-the-definite-guide-to-non-duality-enlightenment-and-the-nature-of-reality/

https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/25857-the-egg-experiment/

https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/25637-leo-guras-sick-logic-on-happiness-youtube/

There is a test however to verify if consciousness is infinite or that it is created by the brain; by slamming someone on the head with a baseball bat to see which prevails; consciousness or the brain. However, while they are so convinced, no one volunteers to take this test... I wonder why

The difference is, they will stay on this forum and you will leave. This is their Church.

Most responses I get from people here are nondual jargon, yeah. But people HAVE left the Actualized Church of Leo the Gura thanks to Unspirituality's content. And yeah why don't these nondualists go and take the test? Wait they live like everyone else but like to talk to others about their repackaged form of "God".

As you seem to have quite a few posts, I assume you once bought into Leo's nondual stuff? What snapped you out of it?

[Consilience]

@Emanyalpsid @Violinpracticerdude Try shedding all of your beliefs about reality and seeing it as it is a priori to any of your biases and then talk to us about the supposed “church” lolol. It’s telling that neither of you responded to my post.

 

I hope you both find what you’re looking for.

[Flammable]

@Violinpracticerdude  I just want to give you a hint as I was in quite a similar position as you a while back:

How is it so that it is always others who are evil and deluded, but never you?

Try to ponder this. You might see something there   It definitely helped me see a few things I had overlooked.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Flammable

[Violinpracticerdude]

10 hours ago, Consilience said:

What’s really ironic about the idea that spirituality is escapism is that for me, I literally hit the limit of rationality and modern science which pushed me to explore alternative explanations of reality and consciousness. It had zero to do with escape and everything to do with discovering truth. You should watch Leo’s blog on metaphysics and epistemology.

 

Look into the hard problem of consciousness, contemplate the true profundity of the idea that the map is not and can’t ever be the territory by definition, really wrap your mind around the fact that symbolic representation is always SYMBOLIC, eg not the thing it represents. Science, language, rationality are contingent upon ralationships and concepts, they are LITERALLY nothing more the constructs within the domain of mind. Reality is being itself though, not mental activity.

 

Best advice I could give is go down the rabbit hole of rationality. You’ll eventually become so rational you’ll have no choice but to see the limits, and flaws of logic and reason and why using the traditional systems of thought you’ve been programmed with since birth wont cut it if you want to really understand the absolute nature of reality.

 

And in the end, become so rational you become a mystic because that’s where it will ultimately lead. 

I've followed rationality and it's told me that spiritual experiences ARE genuine FOR THE PERSON HAVING THEM. They tell you about yourself, but interpreting them as speaking of reality perverts and distorts the experiences.