all understanding is metaphoric: aliens dont need mathematics

[MM1988]

I dont agree with this.

Isn't it true that if an alien civilization were on the same technological level as us they would need to understand certain formulas?

Of course an aliens wouldnt understand a human written formula. But how could you build a spaceship if you cant calculate the hypotenuse of a triangle? I agree that these models are not literally true but you would need to put reality into a certain model if you want to get the technological advancements, there seems no way around it.

Mathematics has to be common ground to at least a degree.

[Leo Gura]

This is a totally unscientific and naive assumption.

What you are failing to take into account is that mathematics is entirely dependent on the human brain's specific chemistry and physiology. Even minor variations in brain structure would render mathematics and logic and triangles moot.

Mathematics is purely a human invention. There are an infinite number of alternative modes of slicing and dicing reality, each with its pros and cons, each dependent on brain physiology.

A bird can build a nest without knowing anything about triangles. Don't dismiss that.

[MM1988]

@Leo Gura What about planets? These are naturally occuring shapes, spheres, no way around it. Aliens would have to know the concept of a sphere and calculate its circumference for spacetravel for exmaple.

[Shadowraix]

An alien is probably doing something for their technological advancements.

But it doesn't have to be mathematics.

As Leo said you can create a model for the universe in an infinite number of ways.

Life is relatively similar on Earth. Makes me wonder just how different an alien species would be.

[MM1988]

But you just have to quantify distance in some way, and have some way to get the circumference of a planet. Tell just one way how you would get off your planet without doing that.

You will have to put reality in a system that is simmilar to mathematics or it just wont happen.

Edited October 4, 2018 by MM1988

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, Outer said:

You're obsessed about mathematics and chemistry to the extent that it is only a concept for you, because you don't use it. People who use it don't obsess about that fact.

Yeah cause mathematicians are typically stuck in their own paradigms and don't realize their own self imposed limits lol

[CreamCat]

We haven't seen any alien, yet.

[MM1988]

by the way scientists dont say mathematics is a universal language because they are pretentious.

Its because the only thing we can assume about life on another planet is that we share the same physical laws, so thats the only common ground we can safely assume.

[Zweistein]

@MM1988 Do aliens really exist?

5 minutes ago, MM1988 said:

Its because the only thing we can assume about life on another planet is that we share the same physical laws, so thats the only common ground we can safely assume.

If they exist, could they maybe intuitively "know" about physical laws?

[Shadowraix]

2 hours ago, Zweistein said:

Do aliens really exist?

To some degree yes. As far as aliens in a development stage equal or higher than us, that is unknown.

[Zweistein]

3 hours ago, Shadowraix said:

To some degree yes. As far as aliens in a development stage equal or higher than us, that is unknown.

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2017/09/but-seriously-where-are-all-of-the-aliens/

?

[DarkestLight]

Those are models, and models are based off of perception. This is not about aliens, this is about your mind, and possibly other people's minds imagining what aliens would be like without ever experiencing them. Math is a linguistic construct to reflect the experience of human pattern recognition and a tool we can use. But our perception of patterns is likely to be a heuristic of a sort. It seems to be the nature of perception (Inner being), not the nature of an outward being. Since life's genesis, evolution has acted as a directive: to form of metaphorical immortality through survival and the proliferation of genes or in an abstract sense, legacy or purpose in humans. Like a virus or bacteria for example. But it all reduces to an illogical desire for survival in a sense. Why live or die? Well your emotions and sensations drive you strongly to live, or in some cases, die. But what we define as living, that's already hard to even know. At what point is something physics, chemistry, biology? Other than a useful model for survival and the desire for knowledge by extension, how can we say we are alive? Anyhow, the patterns become more complex, but the principle remains the same, perhaps again metaphorically and in different forms, but essentially the same. So our perception is most likely a way to frame what we perceive as relevant data, which is based off of the values/priorities underlying that. (That is, the urge to survive in any form) And so, when you generalize, you try to make sense of a tiny pocket of what appears to be reality. When you fit data into boxes, you already draw a box onto a seemingly infinite canvas. Models already go through a series of filters inside the mind. Intuition through experience and a higher degree of awareness has helped me, but honestly to even perceive any form of data as a piece is to create a box itself.

[Leo Gura]

12 hours ago, MM1988 said:

What about planets? These are naturally occuring shapes, spheres, no way around it.

"Sphere" is a human-invented concept. There is nothing "natural" about them. All of that is a projection of your own mind.

Quote

Aliens would have to know the concept of a sphere and calculate its circumference for spacetravel for exmaple.

No they wouldn't. This is a groundless anthropocentric assumption.

You might as well reason that aliens must have pizza because otherwise what would they eat?

Don't mistake the limits of your imagination for the limits of the universe. That's your key mistake here. It's a classic epistemic blunder.

[Arthur]

In my opinion,

It might seem like certain conditions has to be met for life to emerge on a planet. But that's only from human's perspective. Because we haven't encountered radical life forms yet. Why cant life develop in -100 Fahrenheit? because it's not a comfortable temperature for any living organism known so far?

Even if there were Earth-like conditions on an alien planet. Evolution could have taken aliens on a million different paths of development. Evolution is shaped by luck, unpredictable events (ice ages, meteors etc.), geography and more. They might have completely different biology which means different language and understanding of reality.

I think Mathematics is very much dependent on the mind, and it is a modern invention. There are Native tribes that have a very different language structure and cognitive understanding of reality, not like any modern languages. Yet, they can do basic addition and subtraction without any concept of numbers.

Interesting perspective about alien perception is depicted in the movie "Arrival" (2016). The aliens there don't even have the concept of Time, let alone mathematics.

Here is an example of human silliness. Today, we all image aliens on a sort of flying discs. But before the first human flight was possible (around 1900), when people had no concept of airplanes, everybody imagined aliens using boats for transportation. People thought aliens would come on a vessel from the ocean.
This goes to show that we project a lot of our own reality when we conceptualize about aliien species. But I think we can never know for sure.

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Arthur

[Nahm]

Everything actually is you. Science is description transpiring in magic, you, a means to experience, not a limiter or actuality of it. Aliens appear as aliens, just so you can experience “aliens”, but they’re as much you as ‘your’ hand or ‘my’ hand.  Ya, I know, I’m the crazy one. 

[Mu_]

18 hours ago, MM1988 said:

I dont agree with this.

Isn't it true that if an alien civilization were on the same technological level as us they would need to understand certain formulas?

Of course an aliens wouldnt understand a human written formula. But how could you build a spaceship if you cant calculate the hypotenuse of a triangle? I agree that these models are not literally true but you would need to put reality into a certain model if you want to get the technological advancements, there seems no way around it.

Mathematics has to be common ground to at least a degree.

I dont know what your exact definition of mathamatics is, but isn't it true that functional things can be made without math?  Trial and error, perhaps intuition and observation and experimentation can build a hut, a modest bridge, a filtration system.  So if things can be built without "math" perhaps aliens can build spaceships without math.  One million aliens may of went into the process of this experimentation and perhaps our math could of saved them time and effort and life, but doesn't mean it was needed to build what we use math to build.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Mu_

[Baotrader]

On 04/10/2018 at 6:12 PM, Leo Gura said:

This is a totally unscientific and naive assumption.

What you are failing to take into account is that mathematics is entirely dependent on the human brain's specific chemistry and physiology. Even minor variations in brain structure would render mathematics and logic and triangles moot.

Mathematics is purely a human invention. There are an infinite number of alternative modes of slicing and dicing reality, each with its pros and cons, each dependent on brain physiology.

A bird can build a nest without knowing anything about triangles. Don't dismiss that.

i am grateful that you helped me to know that mathematics is not a standard for intelligence. I did not know i was brainwashed by my culture about it, not even after my no-self experience