Is suffering (not pain) really entirely optional?

[Quantum_fluctuations]

I really wanted to examine why suffering actually take place and if it is possible to be free of mental suffering. Some say suffering happens because of resistance to 'what is'.

Let's take a concrete example , There is a teenage boy who is  shorter than his peers. That's a fact right there. An intricate network of atoms is relatively smaller in size than of a 99% (both are Homo sapiens) similar intricate network of atoms. Girls won't like him much. Female  organisms of his species have some preferences due to evolution, he's among less prefered. He would have disadvantage in hand to hand combat with taller person. . So, larger one 'wins' and becomes successful in negative impact on stability of 'smaller' organism by causing physical harm. It may be possible that 'smaller' organism may not be able to hold up as self-sustaining unit and 'die'.

In order to survive in mental modules produce suffering in 'smaller' organism as his conscious mind detects threat to its well-being which are product of evolution. To survive in environment it and maintain a coherent story it has a illusion of self. But when somehow he can see past through this 'self', he's called enlightened.

None of this seems bad from universe's POV. But it does from POV of person identified with the self of that teenage boy.

This is 3rd person objective truth about situation. Pretty good, causing no suffering to my brain right now. But I can't ignore the fact that I am that teenage boy (Am I not? How is it possible? I see everything through eyes of this body, feel sensations inside it.) Third person POV gives relief but when back to 1st person POV, I feel mental suffering. I can feel identified with character of a short teenage boy whose reality is different than what he expects it to be (you know what everyone expects it to be). 

He resists 'what is' because he can't deal with 'what is'. Its just not good enough. Its plain bad. He isn't upto size of his peers and would always be seen by others as short as first characterization. And it doesn't make sense from 1st person POV how would a person who accepts 'what is' can act in any meaningful way. Every one has to define what he is good for him and what's not. (I am willing to be wrong here, that's why I'm asking) How would he live his life after accepting everything as 'what is'. How would he decide what to do?

So, how do I deal with this situation from 1st person POV?

 

Edited October 2, 2018 by Quantum_fluctuations
Grammar issues.

[Hellspeed]

This is not really suffering. 

When one goes in the own personal emotions, awakens, then that someone will not care anymore even he/she is ugly. 

Will make about what he/she has and be proud of it. 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by Hellspeed

[Shadowraix]

22 hours ago, Quantum_fluctuations said:

y (Am I not? How is it possible? I see everything through eyes of this body, feel sensations inside it.)

Why would you assume that? Just because you are having this kind of experience does mean thats all you are. 

To say you are human requires to make a distinction that doesn't actually exist.

22 hours ago, Quantum_fluctuations said:

He resists 'what is' because he can't deal with 'what is'. Its just not good enough. Its plain bad. He isn't upto size of his peers and would always be seen by others as short as first characterization. And it doesn't make sense from 1st person POV how would a person who accepts 'what is' can act in any meaningful way. Every one has to define what he is good for him and what's not. (I am willing to be wrong here, that's why I'm asking) How would he live his life after accepting everything as 'what is'. How would he decide what to do?

You act based on desire. Nothing you do is wrong or right. You can wish for the world to be a certain way and certainly advocate for it but you must surrender to whatever the result is. You may succeed you may not. You can have a career and build a meaningful life if you desire to. Or you can be homeless scavenging or whatever on the streets. That works too.

One of the things about this kind of work is it changes how you see the world. For example you no longer see yourself as just the human body but as everything. That alone will change how you treat the world you interact with. The end result will be total surrender but you can still do what you want. I can try to pick up the hot girl at the mall. Success or failure, I accept and move on.

[Brittany]

On 10/2/2018 at 11:56 AM, Quantum_fluctuations said:

Let's take a concrete example , There is a teenage boy who is  shorter than his peers. That's a fact right there. An intricate network of atoms is relatively smaller in size than of a 99% (both are Homo sapiens) similar intricate network of atoms. Girls won't like him much. Female  organisms of his species have some preferences due to evolution, he's among less prefered. He would have disadvantage in hand to hand combat with taller person. . So, larger one 'wins' and becomes successful in negative impact on stability of 'smaller' organism by causing physical harm. It may be possible that 'smaller' organism may not be able to hold up as self-sustaining unit and 'die'.

In order to survive in mental modules produce suffering in 'smaller' organism as his conscious mind detects threat to its well-being which are product of evolution. To survive in environment it and maintain a coherent story it has a illusion of self. But when somehow he can see past through this 'self', he's called enlightened.

None of this seems bad from universe's POV. But it does from POV of person identified with the self of that teenage boy.

"shorter than peers"

"he's among less preferred"

"girls won't like him"

"disadvantage with taller people"

You need self love.

Self love and self compassion heals all of the "I am not as great as other people" thoughts.

You are bullying yourself! And saying horrible and mean things to yourself.

This is why you are suffering.

Because there is a bully in your brain.

You are holding up a sword against yourself.

Drop your sword and stop attacking yourself.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Brittany

[Mu_]

On 10/2/2018 at 11:56 AM, Quantum_fluctuations said:

I really wanted to examine why suffering actually take place and if it is possible to be free of mental suffering. Some say suffering happens because of resistance to 'what is'.

Let's take a concrete example , There is a teenage boy who is  shorter than his peers. That's a fact right there. An intricate network of atoms is relatively smaller in size than of a 99% (both are Homo sapiens) similar intricate network of atoms. Girls won't like him much. Female  organisms of his species have some preferences due to evolution, he's among less prefered. He would have disadvantage in hand to hand combat with taller person. . So, larger one 'wins' and becomes successful in negative impact on stability of 'smaller' organism by causing physical harm. It may be possible that 'smaller' organism may not be able to hold up as self-sustaining unit and 'die'.

In order to survive in mental modules produce suffering in 'smaller' organism as his conscious mind detects threat to its well-being which are product of evolution. To survive in environment it and maintain a coherent story it has a illusion of self. But when somehow he can see past through this 'self', he's called enlightened.

None of this seems bad from universe's POV. But it does from POV of person identified with the self of that teenage boy.

This is 3rd person objective truth about situation. Pretty good, causing no suffering to my brain right now. But I can't ignore the fact that I am that teenage boy (Am I not? How is it possible? I see everything through eyes of this body, feel sensations inside it.) Third person POV gives relief but when back to 1st person POV, I feel mental suffering. I can feel identified with character of a short teenage boy whose reality is different than what he expects it to be (you know what everyone expects it to be). 

He resists 'what is' because he can't deal with 'what is'. Its just not good enough. Its plain bad. He isn't upto size of his peers and would always be seen by others as short as first characterization. And it doesn't make sense from 1st person POV how would a person who accepts 'what is' can act in any meaningful way. Every one has to define what he is good for him and what's not. (I am willing to be wrong here, that's why I'm asking) How would he live his life after accepting everything as 'what is'. How would he decide what to do?

So, how do I deal with this situation from 1st person POV?

 

1st person self and 3rd person self are all one self and more then this one self currently realizes.  You are the awareness within/of all these.  Recognizing this more and more can grow what you call first person self into a self that is embarrassing of all that 3rd person self recognizes in a way that is tangible and felt.  Listening to Brittanys advice (through introspection, dedication and understanding) can help with this shift.  Meditation, practice of gratitude, and recognizing just how you experience through mind/body can all help in this development.  Be open to the teachings of many enlightened people and integrate what you understand into your life.  This will change first person POV. 

Also cuddo's to you for being so young and open to all this.  I will point out some dimensions in your thinking that may help you in your development.  Yes resistance to "what is" can cause suffering, however what you've defined as "what is" is only partial.  It is on the one hand "what is" from your 1st POV and there for it is a "what is", however this "what is" is your current felt and seen belief system which is creating "what is".  This is not a inherent "what is", like a fire under your skin causing burning, its one that you create.  Its not a "what is" defined by the objective universe, its only defined by you and those who agree with you (other humans).  There are other humans who perhaps you have not met in your circle that do not see your "what is" as you do, and probably find you attractive, funny and a cool small guy to hang out with.  Your negative idea's of yourself is creating your "what is" (and yes these idea's are very likely inherited by your influences around you like your peers, the t.v. movies you watch and a long history of similar thinking over the last ?? million years).  Hope this helps

Edited October 4, 2018 by Mu_

[Quantum_fluctuations]

On 10/4/2018 at 6:38 AM, Brittany said:

"shorter than peers"

"he's among less preferred"

"girls won't like him"

"disadvantage with taller people"

You need self love.

Self love and self compassion heals all of the "I am not as great as other people" thoughts.

You are bullying yourself! And saying horrible and mean things to yourself.

This is why you are suffering.

Because there is a bully in your brain.

You are holding up a sword against yourself.

Drop your sword and stop attacking yourself.

But to me they just seem like truth about the situation. And I just wanted to get comfortable with them. That's it.

Now, I think if actually there is no 'self as many enlightened teacher say (I'm not sure until I find it for myself, but I can align my thinking that way till then)' then there is no way I can feel bad about my 'self' being shorter. Idea of living life without a 'self' seems so good!

 

[TheAvatarState]

@Quantum_fluctuations

What is suffering? Get to the root. 

[Forestluv]

@Quantum_fluctuations Asking if suffering is optional assumes there is a chooser. I would question this assumption and inquire: who/what is this chooser? During meditation, see if you can locate a chooser.

[lmfao]

@Quantum_fluctuations the way I see it, suffering isn't optional because nothing is optional. 

But once your awareness/consciousness is heightened and you become aware of the fact that nothing is optional then your suffering will dissappear. Being aware that nothing is optional is to become aware that you live in this uncaused present moment. You did nothing to create this present moment at all, it is just the way it is. 

[Hellspeed]

There is no around suffering. You created an EGO based on suffering, but back then when you where growing and it was like an addiction. So now going backwards the suffering arises because of that atrohpy in the system.

[Quantum_fluctuations]

@Hellspeed  That's true. It's not ever present. It just arises, when I compare myself to what I think I 'should be' to have good life.

[purerogue]

Simple  , he does not decided how to deal with first person problems

[Aquarius]

Both suffering and pain and optional. You can have pain without suffering though.

[Zigzag Idiot]

From a Gurdjieffian perspective. For whatever it's worth,,,,

In Talks on Beelzebub's Tales, J. G. Bennett distinguishes four types of suffering - Unnecessary Suffering, Unavoidable Suffering, Voluntary Suffering and Intentional Suffering:

The first is Unnecessary Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that we incur because of our unreasonable attitudes and expectations towards others, from our ill-will, hatred and rejection of others, from doubt, possessiveness, arrogance and self pity. In other words, suffering arising from our self-importance.

The second is Unavoidable Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that comes to us by accident or from events beyond our control, such as interpersonal conflicts, war, disaster, disease or death.

Third, we have Voluntary Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that we take upon ourselves in order to accomplish a personal aim, such as an athlete who disciplines himself to win a race, or a student who labours to get good grades.

And finally we have Intentional Suffering. According to Bennett, this would be the kind of suffering that we take upon ourselves in order to accomplish an impersonal or altruistic goal, one that is directed more towards service to others or to the Work, and not for any personal gain. Bennett assumes that this is what Gurdjieff meant by Intentional Suffering.