Pickup / MGTOW on Spiral Dynamics

[Toby]

I'm rereading the Spiral Dynamics book right now and wondered where "Pickup" and the "MGTOW" is on the spiral. Or let's say I thought they must be pretty "low". I would say both range from RED to BLUE to ORANGE, with Pickup more blue-ORANGE and MGTOW more unhealthy BLUE in transition to ORANGE / RED. Both concerned with non-conventional behavior and the correct belief system. Although in Pickup there are some elements taken from GREEN and 2nd tier approaches (Eckhart Tolle or David Deida) in service of the ORANGE and RED self-serving agenda like "being in the now" to get laid more often.

What do you guys think? Does any of you see GREEN or 2nd tier?

[bejapuskas]

@Toby  In my opinion its mostly orange, but it could vary from person to person... Perspective is the key.

[Haumea2018]

Pickup can be Green...if you recycle the condom. 

[Emne]

4 hours ago, Haumea2018 said:

Pickup can be Green...if you recycle the condom. 

 

[Spiral]

Everything is not relevant to spiral dynamics, pickup is usually orange.  

These mans right activist groups and feminism is typically green. MGTOW is mostly just bitterness so categorising them is tricky, I mean fine if you don’t want a long term partner,  but MGTOW is always complaining trying to justify not spending time with women.

[Emerald]

Mostly Red/Blue/Orange. But it can be Green too, but that's rare.

It tends to present as mostly Orange with quite a lot of shadow Red and Blue in many of PUAs. 

Green - "I like sex and so do women. I want to have lots of it for the sake of a novel pleasurable mutual experience, but I'm not interested in settling down. I want to explore my sexuality."

Orange - "I want to have sex with lots of women to validate my social status." aka vagina as social currency to validate one's own existence within the materialistic society. In Orange, sex is currency and is a purely transactional experience, where a man uses his status to make a "sex purchase" from a woman who is the "pussy gatekeeper". 

Blue - "Female sexuality should be controlled through the institution of marriage. Therefore, women who are slutty have proven themselves non-virtuous. Therefore, I (as a man) can seek anonymous sex with loose women as they have proven themselves to be morally deficient and thus unworthy of significance in my life and in general. Degenerates have no place in society anyway. But my future wife will be virtuous and chaste, and I will treat her like a delicate flower, provide for her, and make all the decisions."

Red - "Women are literal property. I will amass as many women to my harem as I can because I always get my way. And I will kill any man who even looks at my women." (followed by Guteral monkey noises and lots of knuckle dragging) - (in Orange sex from a woman is currency. In Red, women themselves are currency.)

Edited September 29, 2018 by Emerald

[Martin123]

16 hours ago, Toby said:

MGTOW

oh my god I had no idea what this is! I just did a quick google peek. This is actually AMAZING. As strange as this sounds its the first step of men embracing their own femininity! I LOVE IT! YES!! Thanks for creating this posts and opening my eyes to this! :-) 

[Martin123]

11 hours ago, Spiral said:

 but MGTOW is always complaining trying to justify not spending time with women.

Hey Spiral, I actually had the same thought as you did. And I do agree and it is important it doesnt lead to rejecting females for good or on a larger scale. However when you remove yourself from women, or even better you remove yourself from reliance on women to provide the feminine energy, you are closer to finding the feminine nourishment and strength within you, and becoming a balanced expression of the dance that the masculine and feminine express together.
It is a really positive step. :-) Rather advanced emotional development. Of course there is a danger of it becoming rejecting towards women, I think incels have fallen into this pattern... but then again they are in it only to be woken back up. 

 

 

edit: It is actually another way that helps out with balancing our left and right hemispheres, which is one of the byproducts of meditation. Isnt that incredible?? O:-) Because Left vs Right hemisphere is a battle between the feminine and masculine.
With this movement, there is the opportunity for the masculine to say "I will fight you no longer, I have to carve my own path." And how ironic it is that it will only find its path back to the feminine, that has never left its side. Oh this is just too cool to be true, I feel like I live in some sort of an epic adventure... I guess I do!

Edit2: It also balances out the sacral chakra, that has to do with codependency, and personal and sexual power. If you ask me this is a healthy way to empower men, just like feminism can be a healthy way of empowering women. Has feminism gone wrong in some cases where it became man-shaming and rather than equality promoting, it created more fight between the feminine and masculine? Of course! But thats all just the feisty energy being played out, and it needs to be played out before it is surrendered.

Oh I wish I could show you how excited I am about this for all males!!!! Go males, our emotional needs, our need for love, compassion, kindness, respect and appreciation. We all deserve all those things, and we are not receiving them from females, because females havent developed the safety to provide all those things because of their repressed masculine, that was caused by men acting out an aggresssive, misogynistic behaviour. Who were only aggressive because nobody told them that they deserve their needs met!
And so with MGTOW they shall realise the daunting reality of their needs......... This is SO SO beautiful and positive and exiting!

Edited September 29, 2018 by Martin123

[XYZ]

Both PUA and MGTOW are mentioned in the video about stage Orange. But as you mention though, some PUA material applies stage green material for personal development, and you have guys like Eben Pagan and RSD Tyler/Owen who have definitely evolved to Green despite still teaching pickup. There is a lot of overlap, especially in "inner game" concepts.

And if I were to take a gander at how each stage approaches sexuality:

Beige: Multiply

Purple: Ooga Booga mating rituals

Red: Fighting over mates, promiscuity, fuck and chuck, abusive relationships, sexual slavery, rape.

Blue: Modesty, Chastity, Marriage and Traditional Monogamy

Orange: Become very skilled at attraction, exploring sex and relationships, or disregard the whole mating game going your own way, or some of both at different times.

Green: Be genuine with people, sex and relationships are whatever you want them to be, it's all relative, love is love, we are all one.

Yellow: Finding ways to optimize the human sex drive and desire for intimate companionship, or transcend/transmute them into higher consciousness.

Turquoise: Transcended sexuality altogether.

[Haumea2018]

Green: pretend you like soy and Fleet Foxes to appear less threatening. 

Green pickup has been around since the 1970s.  See "Alan Alda" and the sensitive male.

It's just more pervasive now.

 

Edited September 29, 2018 by Haumea2018