A Christian critique of Actualized.org

[Consept]

9 hours ago, Nondescript said:

@Consept 

Last year I had an unprovoked spontaneous mystical experience. I need to give some background on this before I begin because we all know these experiences are influenced by what we've read or studied in the past. 

I had:

-  Been saved as a child

- Read at some point in the past all of the New Testament, but not really gotten into it or felt like I got anything out of it. I certainly didn't live the life of a Christian. Far from it. 

 

I had not:

- believed in anything supernatural or spiritual 

- meditated, studied any other religion or philosophy,  nor believed in such. 

- ever been taught or even thought of The Bible as being divinely inspired, or anything other than an imperfect, perhaps mythical work of literature or fable composed by man. 

 

During my experience,  when it hit and filled my entire being with the Divine - in an instant I knew that the Bible was actually true and real. As I was in awe with this ineffable experience,  I then pictured the Bible being dropped into existence out of sky. And thought WOW ...everything humans need to know has been provided to us in the Bible. 

 

Keep in mind that I had no idea that some churches actually teach this. At the church I go to now we absolutely accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God..but this just reinforced what had already been communicated to me. 

I know this sounds crazy and unbelievable. 

Your experience is your experience, and everyone is on their own path, so I don't think it's crazy.

But what I was getting at in my first post was if you were born in a different tradition or saved by a different tradition or born 3000 years ago say before christianity, and had a similar mystical experience, would you have the same imagery ie the Bible etc. If you think about it people were having mystical experiences before our current religions, Lao Tzu, Buddhism etc. 

So not to debate whether you had a mystical experience or not, I'm sure that you did, but really I guess I'm just questioning the particular imagery as I think if you have any imagery it can slow down your spiritual progress. But that's just my opinion 

[Torkys]

10 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

2) Existence of other gospels about Jesus which were never part of the Bible. The books in new testament was handpicked by Rome to suit their political agenda during the time of Constantine. Remember that this same Roman empire wanted to kill Jesus when he was born.

[...]

6) a discussion about Christian mysticism, union with God and saints like St. Avila and St. John of the cross who are believed to have attained union with God. Christian mysticism preserves most of the original teachings of Jesus.

 

@Shanmugam Can you provide more context for these points? I am interested as I am unsure about the validity of contemporary Christianity.

10 hours ago, Nondescript said:

Otherwise man interjects his own opinion or twist on Gods word.

@Nondescript @calibrate I have an issue with all scriptures which are "divinely inspired": How can symbols (relative) communicate Truth (which is Absolute)? How do you account for the multiple interpretations of the Bible?

Unless my beliefs are radically changed if I become a Christian / monotheist, only direct communications with Jesus / the Holy Spirit / the Father / God would be my only authority.

[Nondescript]

3 hours ago, Consept said:

Your experience is your experience, and everyone is on their own path, so I don't think it's crazy.

But what I was getting at in my first post was if you were born in a different tradition or saved by a different tradition or born 3000 years ago say before christianity, and had a similar mystical experience, would you have the same imagery ie the Bible etc. If you think about it people were having mystical experiences before our current religions, Lao Tzu, Buddhism etc. 

So not to debate whether you had a mystical experience or not, I'm sure that you did, but really I guess I'm just questioning the particular imagery as I think if you have any imagery it can slow down your spiritual progress. But that's just my opinion 

I believe mystical experiences are the initiators of all of the worlds religions. I see your point of view there completely and I do not know what to make of that either. I thank God that I live in an age where the Truth has been brought to light. 

My theory is that some of the mystical experiences came from God and some of them came from other (evil) Spirits. 

[Nahm]

13 hours ago, Nondescript said:

My beliefs

“My theory”.

Prior to these, is Truth, to which Jesus points.

”If you see the buddha in the road, kill him”.

 

 

[Nondescript]

@Nahm

What would you make of ancient pagan religions that sacrificed children? Following my theory,  those came about by an evil spirit. 

I am not a wise person and I am not a theologian. I am not intelligent enough or articulate enough to argue per se. I genuinely want to know your thoughts on this. Even though I may anticipate your response,  it is not a baited question where I plan to follow with another question. This is sincere. 

[Rilles]

@Nondescript

https://www.rationalchristianity.net/human_sacrifice.html

[Nahm]

If I am separate from God, I am temporary, living in fear, self doubt, falsity & denial, and ignoring my very being, my own internal sensations, which are never at a loss to tell me so. This “ I “ can’t listen, it cannot feel, it can not love - it does not exist. It is a thought. 

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”.

In understanding the time this was written; the politics, the role of the king, the government, the church, the state of survival, the sciences; it is revealed to be hidden in plain site, a parable which lived on because it was so well cloaked. I am is prior to thought, prior to beliefs, prior to knowledge, prior to experience, prior to perception.  Consider, as in, entertain the idea, that the intention was:

I am is the way, the Truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (God), except through, I am (one’s self).

If you shared this with Trump, what would he make of it? 

When shared with Constantine, what did he make of it?

 

 

Nothing is hidden from you, merely cloaked, by an “ I “.

[Nondescript]

@Rilles

Thank you for the link. 

@Nahm

You didn't address my question and that is ok.

The pantheistic argument you bring was common in the early church, as they were comingling other religious philosophies with Christianity. Paul addressed it in many of his letters. 

Nothing we are debating here hasn't been debated before, even thousands of years ago. Except I am not qualified to be at the other end of this debate. I wish someone was here that was. I am out of my league. And I am breaking the guidelines of this very peaceful and friendly place. 

 

[isabel]

he's not following his own book on a super obvious point, judgement

the bible is super clear on that one, it says don't do it

yet this guy literally and clearly judges leo's very soul as unworthy of entering heaven lol

he's the blind leading the blind...

 

[Nondescript]

Genesis 2:9 NLT
The LORD God made all sorts of trees grow up from the ground-trees that were beautiful and that produced delicious fruit. In the middle of the garden he placed the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

Genesis 2:17 KJV
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

Genesis 3:1-4 KJV
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: [3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [5]
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

The ultimate and first lie that was ever told. 

Edited September 29, 2018 by Nondescript
Added verse 5

[Nondescript]

@Nahm

Why did you remove your post? 

What I posted above in a nutshell is just what you tried to convince me of in that post, is it not? I suspect you've changed you opinions of me that you posted, and that is ok. You said you liked a good debate but then removed your argument,  which you are perfectly entitled to do. If you want to remove this, and all of my posts that is fine too. I didn't start the thread. 

Edited September 29, 2018 by Nondescript

[Nahm]

@Nondescript

The sentiment was helpful or not, to you, but very specific to you, and could easily be misinterpreted outside of that context. I often do this with a post.  I am not sure what you want to debate (specifically), and I don’t know what your interpretation of the Bible passages are. Every One finds what they find in writings, as the writings themselves are meaningless. What do you see in those passages?

I’m not understanding why you are posting passages which instruct you not to pursue knowledge of Good & evil, while you are holding and expressing knowledge of Good & evil. 

“What would you make of ancient pagan religions that sacrificed children? Following my theory,  those came about by an evil spirit”.

[Nondescript]

13 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Nondescript

The sentiment was helpful or not, to you, but very specific to you, and could easily be misinterpreted outside of that context. I often do this with a post.  I am not sure what you want to debate (specifically), and I don’t know what your interpretation of the Bible passages are. Every One finds what they find in writings, as the writings themselves are meaningless. What do you see in those passages?

I’m not understanding why you are posting passages which instruct you not to pursue knowledge of Good & evil, while you are holding and expressing knowledge of Good & evil. 

“What would you make of ancient pagan religions that sacrificed children? Following my theory,  those came about by an evil spirit”.

You said that WE are gods. You said there is no good and evil. 

In that scripture above, there is half truth. Humanities eyes were opened (knowledge of good and evil), but  we are not gods. 

 

[Rilles]

You are contradicting your own master 

 

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?

 

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

[Nahm]

@Nondescript

You are God, looking for Truth in a book. The words in books are pointers, to look within. 

 

That’s correct, there is no duality of good and evil. This is an illusion. What you hold as evil, is actually, you, which appears evil, only if denied, as you. The realization of this, is often referred to as awakening. The full realization of this, is often referred to as nonduality, or nondual, and there is no more illusion. 

I am not right or wrong, I am maya, your illusion, another pointer, to you looking within. 

Consider a horror movie you’ve watched, which had evil content in it. You readily see that is not evil, because it’s just a movie. Same thing, with reality. 

A wise man once said “do not attempt to go, where you have not yet been”. What I said (above) is where you have not yet been. To “get there”, you’d first need to address, what is, or ‘where you are’:

Indoctrination: the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

That word is a pointer to where you are, when that is accepted, it is realized. Then you can begin to see pointers beyond that. 

[Nondescript]

@Nahm

Yes, I have been indoctrinated by a great teacher and prophet of God. After my mystical experience. I went to him to make sense of it. 

 

I did not immediately perceive the experience as "Christian" and it felt as some hidden truths were "downloaded"  from beyond. The more I seek God and study his word the more of what I discovered during my "experience" is confirmed in the Bible in parts that I had not read before the experience. As in that post of mine that was removed,  but that is very very understandable that it was. There have been more synchronicities that I can count that have lead me toward my path. I have a journal of them. What do you make of synchronicities? 

 

The reason we as Christians have to believe the Bible uncritically is because it tells us to. It says that Gods ways are higher than our ways, and Gods thoughts are higher than our thoughts. There are many more passages like this. 

It also says to use the Word of God as a foundation so we are not easily strayed from our beliefs. So that we don't jump on the bandwagon with every new teaching. Jesus's parables address this when he talks about the scattered seed on the ground. 

TL:DR The Word of God must be planted in fertile ground to grow. Satan will come an steal the Word if you are not careful. 

 

Matthew 13:3-23 NLT
He told many stories in the form of parables, such as this one: "Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds. [4] As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them. [5] Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow. [6] But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn't have deep roots, they died. [7] Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants. [8] Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted! [9] Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand." [10] His disciples came and asked him, "Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?" [11] He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not. [12] To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them. [13] That is why I use these parables, For they look, but they don't really see. They hear, but they don't really listen or understand. [14] This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah that says, 'When you hear what I say, you will not understand.When you see what I do, you will not comprehend. [15] For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear,and they have closed their eyes- so their eyes cannot see,and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand,and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.' [16] "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. [17] I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, but they didn't see it. And they longed to hear what you hear, but they didn't hear it. [18] "Now listen to the explanation of the parable about the farmer planting seeds: [19] The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don't understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts. [20] The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy. [21] But since they don't have deep roots, they don't last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God's word. [22] The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God's word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced. [23] The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God's word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!"

My thoughts are, even IF the path I am on is not the only one,  I still choose this path (Jesus). 

I can see your point of view Nahm. You may think that I don't get it, but I just choose not to. It is a strange place to be where I am. A Christian mystic so to speak...all I can do is trust in God. There is no Christian mystic forum. I have read 100s or more examples of mystical experiences and no modern Christian ones. Only a few from hundreds of years ago. And NONE that had a physical component like mine, that could not have been projected by my consciousness.

, @Rilles I see how that verse can lead one to believe that we are gods. It is lowercase "g" and that is Jesus mocking the Pharisees for trying to punish him for claiming that he was God. Theologians have explained why this is said if you want to Google that viewpoint. 

I concede that any debate is over. I am not knowledgeable enough for it. It has been a good discussion. 

[Nahm]

@Nondescript

I thought I deleted my post, if somehow I deleted yours, sorry bout that.  Ime, the synchronicity unfolds into a unity, and I hear you, it is wonderful. There’s a lot of books that tell you to believe them without scruntiy, the Quran is a good one. Give it a read if you haven’t. Or just write one, you could convince people too, we are generally easy to convince. But I think it insulates against looking into things for yourself also, not “straying”. I hear you on fertile ground, usually they aim to indoctrinate children by age 6, as its almost impossible to undo. Satan can’t steal anything from you, you are already him, nothing to worry about there. There’s lots of wisdom in the Bible, fantastic book. 

Not sure how you get my point and choose not to get it...or what point you’re referring to. It does sound strange. I don’t see why there would be a Christian forum, as the view you’re holding is fundamental, people are not to think for themselves,  but to follow &  take another person’s word that the Bible is the word of God. Doesn’t leave much room for growth & expansion on a forum.  It seems you equate God to Christianity. There’s over ten thousand religions, they all equate theirs to God, but they’re all pointers to the same thing. 

What do you mean that your mystical experiences had a physical component? That’s interesting. 

Have you considered meditation, self inquiry, psychedelics, nondual theory? Maybe have a peek at your fertile ground, rather than just the seed someone is planting. In the sense, are you interested in what’s true, or just your existing beliefs? Lot of trouble on my part can spring from the confusion there in. 

[Nondescript]

Here is where I mentioned the physical component. 

Tl;dr version 

 

I couldn't talk certain words. It felt like a fist was placed in my mouth and I couldn't talk at times. 

 

I was texting some people and something like a forcefield kept me from being able to touch my phone. 

 

When I was finally able to touch my phone when I typed it would not show up on the screen. 

 

Though none of this came from my own consciousness, I see how it could be argued that I somehow subconsciously prevented myself from talking or touching my phone....but my subconscious cannot render my phone temporarily unable to type. I did not "project" that. 

 

THAT is what I am looking for...someone...anyone.... that can relate to this experience. 

[Lynnel]

On 27/09/2018 at 11:19 PM, cetus56 said:

@Torkys  "When you meditate it opens you up to demonic influances that cause you to feel rage". .

Contemplate that statement. What does it really say?

Lol. I'm dying. Worst thing demonic influences can do is rage

It says here's a blue person who doesn't want you to meditate because that will open up your mind  

[Shadowraix]

One big problem of the Bible as many know is verifying if whats in the Bible is the full and completely uncensored version of it. Which as others has pointed out, its contents has been cherry picked.

You can find nonduality interpretations in the Bible easy. In fact you can in most religions and even ancient philosophies. Egyptians and Greek were big pursuers of the nondual path. 

Its all the same thing just explained in different ways with different abstractions etc from my perspective. Then when the source author is no longer around all you have is interpretation through YOUR lens and not the authors lens.

You'll go around in circles doing that. It seems awfully flawed to need to read a book to find God and then basically be indoctrinated into the most popular religion of that area as well as the teachers interpretation of the teaching.

This is all outward seeking and not inward seeking. 

All the suffering I see due to religion to me seems to come from following that religion with no inward seeking. Its a closed locked down box that refuses to realize its more than a box.

Beware to not use religion as an opening for the ego to project itself onto the world.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Shadowraix