Is “Sage Level” Consciousness While In Society?

[kieranperez]

Important: When I say “level”, don’t take that as some sort of categorization or some sort of set nondual label/mark of achievement that’s some set in stoke thing. Obviously this is extremely nuanced.

The Question: Is consciousness to the degree of people like great sages Buddha, Christ, Ramana Maharshi, or common day mystics and sages like Sadhguru, Om Swami, Ralston, Osho, Doshin Roshi from Integral Zen, Ken Wilber, etc. really possible while functioning within society? Sure there are people like Ralston who did Zen practice for a year and stuff while living in the Bay Area (which is not the Bay Area that that lives today as opposed to back then). Sure. But it seems almost always across the board that attainment to that level almost always requires a period of true renunciation and total singleminded devotion to the path. I haven’t done psychedelics yet so I will not denounce them and their benefit to the path and how they can serve as accelerators. 

Maybe it’s just me and the way I’m perceiving this whole thing (and please, call me out if I am) but there definitely seems to be an order of magnitude difference in those really select people who have full embodiment and even understanding and grasping of “ultimate enlightenment” (if there is such a thing is not my point... my opinion is that there isn’t) and people who’ve grasped and embody things like no-self and stuff. I mean, people talk about those select people (people like Ramana come to mind from my research) with such a qualitative difference than that of people of “lower level attainments” (not trying to create a hierarchy of like ‘oh he’s 2 points lower than him’ nor as a put down). 

I mean, what does that really take? What does it really look like to do that? What’s really interesting and also intimidating is that it seems like a lot of these guys also fit in theoretical understanding in too (Osho , Ken Wilber, Sri Aurobibdo, and Shunyamurti are 4 great examples that come to my mind) which is just remarkable. 

It just seems like these guys who live, breathe, walk and talk this path put in something orders of magnitude more than even “a lot” (LOL as though we have an abudance of enlightened individuals) of enlightened people. I just feel skeptical about how doable that degree of embodiment, understanding, etc. is while living in a society. Hell most people don’t even get there, much less do it living in a city. Hell x2, most people don’t even get enlightened, much less while living in a normal society. 

What are your thoughts? Does it really take going to extremes like true renunciation to get to this depth?

Final Disclaimer: I ask this because I feel this core gap between where I am and my life purpose because a lot of my vision involves getting to a height of that kind but I’m so discouraged by my current level of development, circumstances, neuroses, etc. 

These kinds of people really inspire me because these people give so much value and impact. It’s not that they just go realize everything that is and the ultimate nature of things and stay there. No, these people create real impact. They create and invent new systems, ways of doing things, are articulate (sometimes), have degrees of wisdom and energy that it wakes people up. The way they carry themselves reflect what they’ve realized. They’re selfless leaders. 

So if you have any comments, tips, advice or wisdom on this matter too I’d appreciate it. Really stuck in life right now on what to do ❤️

[Leo Gura]

@kieranperez Surrender your desire for functioning within society.

Surrender everything.

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, kieranperez said:

Is consciousness to the degree of people like great sages Buddha, Christ, Ramana Maharshi, or common day mystics and sages like Sadhguru, Om Swami, Ralston, Osho, Doshin Roshi from Integral Zen, Ken Wilber, etc. really possible while functioning within society?

Not impossible but full enlightenment is very rare , full enlightenment while functioning within society even more rare. Unless you are tremendously intelligent , it is very difficult to grow spiritually while functioning within society.

[Forestluv]

@kieranperez Once someone reaches that level, I can't imagine them living like a regular guy. Can you imagine adyashanti working as a manager at Office Max and going out with the guys for a few beers? It just doesn't have the same substance. It's just not attractive.

I'm not nearly at that level, yet my interest in common social talk has gotten incredibly thin. I've always found small talk boring, yet now it almost feels painful. I had a date with a regular lady last night who talked about her cruise around Italy, how she got seasick, how the dramamine didn't work until the second day, how she ate on the boat. . . Then she goes on about her coworker and how she smelled alcohol on his breath and she doesn't think he should be allowed to bring in his dog to the office, because it's not a therapy dog. . . It was at such a low level of consciousness and superficial. That is the average level of consciousness around my area. It was painful sitting through it - I wanted to get the hell out of their. It's not much better with my co-workers. The have a higher intellect, but they are asleep as well. Walking around like robots with little awareness and no curiosity about growing. The nearest buddhist group is an hour drive away.

I can see how high conscious people would want to teach and help others to evolve. 

[Haumea2018]

It doesn't really change anything.

When you're fully enlightened, you're back to zero.

You're not anyone "special."

You're just you.

The enlightened person may have an occupation or business that reflects it, but otherwise they are usually quite normal, unless they are some kind of leader in society.

It's not like your tastes in music change.  You don't suddenly only start listening to Indian raga music or something.

It's not like your taste in clothing changes.  You don't suddenly start wearing diapers or togas.

It's not like you start speaking differently, in King James English or something.

It's not like you become a vegan, a celibate, a "minimalist" or any other ostensibly spiritual or trendy thing.

You may be those things, but only because your personality/body was already inclined in that direction.

People like the Dalai Lama are playing a social role for which they are well-suited, but enlightenment isn't solely responsible for their behavior or lifestyle.

You can be enlightened and listen to hard rock, smoke ciggies, eat beef, wear wife beaters and cuss.

That's just prarabdha.  People can't wrap their heads around that because they are incapable of distinguishing between prarabdha (i.e. karma or destiny) and enlightenment.  They think in terms of specialness or perfection.  But perfection is IN the imperfect.

The imperfect wholly embraced IS perfection.

This is almost impossible for an unenlightened person to accept.  As long as there's an ego strand, there's a desirable and undesirable.

But no.  The undesirable must be embraced 100%.  That's how you become a whole person instead of half a person besieged by the world.

“If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.” Gospel of Thomas

Edited September 26, 2018 by Haumea2018

[SOUL]

To get it one ceases wanting it and once one does cease the wanting it is realized there is nothing to get.

Then abiding in this presence of aware being while existing in the manifest reality is the man in the maze.

[kieranperez]

9 hours ago, Haumea2018 said:

It doesn't really change anything.

When you're fully enlightened, you're back to zero.

You're not anyone "special."

You're just you.

The enlightened person may have an occupation or business that reflects it, but otherwise they are usually quite normal, unless they are some kind of leader in society.

It's not like your tastes in music change.  You don't suddenly only start listening to Indian raga music or something.

It's not like your taste in clothing changes.  You don't suddenly start wearing diapers or togas.

It's not like you start speaking differently, in King James English or something.

It's not like you become a vegan, a celibate, a "minimalist" or any other ostensibly spiritual or trendy thing.

You may be those things, but only because your personality/body was already inclined in that direction.

People like the Dalai Lama are playing a social role for which they are well-suited, but enlightenment isn't solely responsible for their behavior or lifestyle.

You can be enlightened and listen to hard rock, smoke ciggies, eat beef, wear wife beaters and cuss.

That's just prarabdha.  People can't wrap their heads around that because they are incapable of distinguishing between prarabdha (i.e. karma or destiny) and enlightenment.  They think in terms of specialness or perfection.  But perfection is IN the imperfect.

The imperfect wholly embraced IS perfection.

This is almost impossible for an unenlightened person to accept.  As long as there's an ego strand, there's a desirable and undesirable.

But no.  The undesirable must be embraced 100%.  That's how you become a whole person instead of half a person besieged by the world.

“If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.” Gospel of Thomas

This was just a rant that has nothing to do with my question LOL. And yes and no. It doesn’t change the circumstances of the world. However it changes everything at the same time. Sorry but Buddha, Christ, Ramana, every great sage weren’t the same nor lived the same post full embodiment as they did when they were ignorant. That’s just flat out false. However, you’re rant had nothing to do with my question. Read my post on why I’m asking this. I don’t want to be enlightened and working in a low end job. Whether you’re enlightened or not you’re going to likely be playing the “social game” whether you like it or not unless you live in the woods and fend for yourself. I personally would like to contribute and make an impact by reaching that kind of high level of development. 

 

10 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@kieranperez Once someone reaches that level, I can't imagine them living like a regular guy. Can you imagine adyashanti working as a manager at Office Max and going out with the guys for a few beers? It just doesn't have the same substance. It's just not attractive.

I'm not nearly at that level, yet my interest in common social talk has gotten incredibly thin. I've always found small talk boring, yet now it almost feels painful. I had a date with a regular lady last night who talked about her cruise around Italy, how she got seasick, how the dramamine didn't work until the second day, how she ate on the boat. . . Then she goes on about her coworker and how she smelled alcohol on his breath and she doesn't think he should be allowed to bring in his dog to the office, because it's not a therapy dog. . . It was at such a low level of consciousness and superficial. That is the average level of consciousness around my area. It was painful sitting through it - I wanted to get the hell out of their. It's not much better with my co-workers. The have a higher intellect, but they are asleep as well. Walking around like robots with little awareness and no curiosity about growing. The nearest buddhist group is an hour drive away.

I can see how high conscious people would want to teach and help others to evolve. 

I’m talking more in lines of: is it possible to reach such levels of growth, Truth, understanding, and embodiment while playing the game of life? So in the process towards full realization. Not after.

And I’m with you on the small talk thing. I live in the heart of San Francisco just a  few blocks from the SF Zen Center that Suzuki Roshi built and I go to an occasional once per week “Young Urban Zen” meeting and it’s still all the same. Just small talk. People pretend they’re spiritual and philosophize about who they are and then go back to their ordinary lives. Whether it’s working at Twitter, Google, a new startup, their business or as a busboy making $500k or $15k.