Arguments against conciousness being fundamental, non-dual state being true

[Enlightenment]

 

There are very experienced meditators and teachers with decades of practice like Kenneth Folk, Shinzen Young, Culadasa, Michael Taft that are not 100% convinced about the ultimate truth

 

 

I recommend watching the entire interview with him on Buddha at the Gas Pump

https://deconstructingyourself.com/podcast/dy-004-feather-light-paper-thin-guest-shinzen-young  Shinzen Young says that this is not something he can say with great confidence

LSD study shows decreases in alpha, beta, theta and delta brain waves but what about gamma? A neuroscientist in a video where Martin Ball smokes 5-MeO-DMT said "consistent with a lot of the other research that's been done, gamma tends to increase" so if the fastest brainwave increases, isn't that in line with what materialist paradigm would suggest?

General anesthesia
There is an argument that if you become sufficiently conscious (master Samatha meditation), you can have some consciousness even in deep dreamless sleep. This is true, however, general anesthesia seems to knock out even those people completely to non-consciousness

https://youtu.be/AyFdmhwCpOM?t=23m49s

Nirodha samapatti AKA anupādisesa nibbāna. There is some controversy on whether or not the version of nibbāna where there is an experience can be called nibbāna, but what about this sort of classic version of nibbāna where there is no experience at all, no consciousness, no non-dual/being infinite? I mean exactly like a materialist would imagine a death to be like. It requires very good meditation skills, furthermore, it's traditionally said to be only possible for non-returners (anāgāmi) and Buddhas (arahants) so only highly awakened with great meditation skills, we may say very conscious people. All this training to discover a materialist paradigm fitting extinction of all mental activity. Many believe that this is precisely what Buddha meant by Nirvana.

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Enlightenment

[Girzo]

What are your brain waves made of?

Consciousness.

Case closed.

[SgtPepper]

This seems to be relevant to what Leo said in the last video "What is Love?". I'll reiterate it here, these individuals appear to have only experienced "No Self", but lack the experience of "infinite love".

Honestly, if they haven't tried psychedelics than its very hard to take their experiences seriously for me personally. You can meditate for 10 years and 3 years of those 10 years can literally be poor meditation (monkey mind, distraction, resistance, not understanding what meditation actually is). The other two can be dull stillness experiences, then the last 5 years you are finally perfecting it, but maybe you only have been focusing on one technique. Literally so many variables... but

You can't fuck up a DMT trip though. Still, I have experienced deep love within myself through meditation and I am not the most disciplined meditator on this forum. 

Perhaps they are so focused on objectivity that they ignore the subjectivity of their experience, not realizing that our subjective selves are part of the absolute infinity.

Another thing, the problem with these podcasts or discussions of non-duality is that its literally pretty much a waste of time, unless you are a beginner. There is too much thinking, thoughts, trying to define shit that is undefinable lol. 

If you want to experience non-duality, you gotta literally shut up and be present. Nothing to figure out, you will only "figure it out" through being it. The love comes from recognizing the beauty, intricacy, infinite aspect of reality, its absolutely amazing, that awe and realizing its all from within brings forth so much love for me. Maybe these individuals don't got enough self-love and struggle? who knows. This is why I won't listen to the whole podcast, decades of meditation won't cut it for me. If you don't have DEEP wisdom from consciousness work besides nihilism then it's not a wholesome experience.

Here we go, on the video you showed me 41:05 - "we would know they are values, as opposed to something baked into the fabric of universe"

ANYTHING THAT YOU EXPERIENCE IS PART OF THE FABRIC OF UNIVERSE. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Advaita

Also I dare you or anyone to find something more fundamental than consciousness lol.

Edited September 25, 2018 by SgtPepper

[Enlightenment]

@SgtPepper Kenneth 4 tab LSD experience of universal consciousness actually was an event that started his meditation practice and also cured his cocaine addiction. I just find it interesting that his certainty of this truth has faded over the decades of practice and experiencing it over and over again.

 

I get what you're saying, there are insight, concentration and morality practices which are all interconnected but not the same

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Enlightenment

[Forestluv]

From a logical perspective: If all concepts are within reality, no concept is all of reality.

It's like a dream character trying to experience and understand ultimate truth. Not an easy task.

[SgtPepper]

8 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

@SgtPepper Kenneth 4 tab LSD experience of universal consciousness actually was an event that started his meditation practice and also cured his cocaine addiction. I just find it interesting that his certainty of this truth has faded over the decades of practice and experiencing it over and over again.

 

I get what you're saying, there are insight, concentration and morality practices which are all interconnected but not the same

 

Do you know if he has done it more than once? and why did he stop? I do think its interesting that the truth he felt faded, but then it must've not been really Truth?

The morality practices for me stem from the realization that everything is ultimately You or deeply interconnected with yourself. As a result, it makes little sense from a high conscious standpoint to hurt others because essentially you are hurting yourself. In addition, causing hateful acts, does not fill oneself with authentic deep Love, it is more of a selfish dark-toned love. 

I still have not unseen this truth and if I lose the truth touch with it, it is because my ego is strong and my mind is making distinctions and valuing the distinctions too. 

I also know when I am heading in the right direction because you will feel yourself elevate in terms of consciousness, sensitivity, being, and a sense of lightness will grow upon you. 

[Enlightenment]

16 minutes ago, SgtPepper said:

Do you know if he has done it more than once? and why did he stop?

 

I don't know.

18 minutes ago, SgtPepper said:

The morality practices for me stem from the realization that everything is ultimately You or deeply interconnected with yourself. As a result, it makes little sense from a high conscious standpoint to hurt others because essentially you are hurting yourself. In addition, causing hateful acts, does not fill oneself with authentic deep Love, it is more of a selfish dark-toned love. 

I still have not unseen this truth and if I lose the truth touch with it, it is because my ego is strong and my mind is making distinctions and valuing the distinctions too. 

I also know when I am heading in the right direction because you will feel yourself elevate in terms of consciousness, sensitivity, being, and a sense of lightness will grow upon you. 

1

Yes, however, I don't think that realization or enlightenment can, for example, cure antisocial personality disorder or any personality disorder for that matter.

Maybe at that point, these people have such a strong equanimity from decades of concentration practices, that they are able to see a feeling of certainty as an empty mental construct

41 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

From a logical perspective: If all concepts are within reality, no concept is all of reality.

It's like a dream character trying to experience and understand ultimate truth. Not an easy task.

Question is, can a dream character truly be certain that he woke up, seen through objective lens if even for a moment or wasn't it just another mental construct? 

[Forestluv]

20 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

Question is, can a dream character truly be certain that he woke up, seen through objective lens if even for a moment or wasn't it just another mental construct? 

Great question. Imagine someone waking up briefly and drifting back to sleep. The dream character ego dissolves momentarily to the higher consciousness and then returns to the dream character consciousness. How would the dream character interpret this? Would he have a "true" understanding? 

Overall, I think the dream character would still be highly deluded, yet less so than his original deluded dream self. His interpretation of the experience is within the framework of a dream character. Similarly, with psychedelics - they can allow the deluded self to wake up briefly and return to the self. Yet any interpretation of the experience is within the framework of the self. He is still highly deluded, yet I would say less so than an unwoken self.

[Leo Gura]

@Enlightenment That is because they have not reached the deepest levels. They have not accessed Absolute Infinity.

They do not understand what existence is.

It's very hard to reach Absolute Infinity through meditation.

Take 5-MeO and you will see.

[Nahm]

1. Have someone punch you in the face.

2. Then immediately try to pretend you did not just get punched in the face.

Truth / Nonduality is not mistakable, like the punch in the face is not mistakable. 

 

 

 

“Yeah but what about.....what if....this guy says.....you’d have to admit it’s possible that.....this one time I....you don’t know.........anybody could be.......” -  clearly you skipped step 1. 

[Enlightenment]

@Leo Gura

I haven't tried 5-MeO yet, but I had an experience on DPT of what I would call complete ego death, beyond senses, time and space, the most humbling experience I've ever had. The moment after I came back it felt extremely true. Until I will try 5-MeO, I can't claim it was the same. Reaching absolute infinity through meditation and confirming or denying whether it's the same or different from 5-MeO, this curiosity is something that has motivated me for the last year to do very heavy Samatha practice and I'm not that far away from equanimity stage where I will be able to access it, I think 3 months left max. When I will finally get my hands on some 5-MeO and compare it - I will write a report.

Wish me luck 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

1. Have someone punch you in the face.

2. Then immediately try to pretend you did not just get punched in the face.

Truth / Nonduality is not mistakable, like the punch in the face is not mistakable. 

Hmmm, Leo gives the example of the unmistakable experience of orgasming during sex. How about we go Full-On Yellow here and *integrate* these concepts?. . . 

1. Start having intercourse

2. As you are orgasming, have someone punch you in the face.

3. Then immediately pretend you did not blow your load. 

[Barry J]

@Leo Gura  I’ll take up the 5 Meo challenge. What is the dose for the breakthrough? Does one need a Trip sitter? Much unpredictability and thrashing about?

[Nahm]

@Serotoninluv  Let’s get that added on urban dictionary.... “The Black Eyed Baby Bandit”.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

@Serotoninluv  Let’s get added on urban dictionary.... “The Black Eyed Baby Bandit”.

LMAO. Very creative!! 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

1. Have someone punch you in the face.

2. Then immediately try to pretend you did not just get punched in the face.

Truth / Nonduality is not mistakable, like the punch in the face is not mistakable. 

 

 

 

“Yeah but what about.....what if....this guy says.....you’d have to admit it’s possible that.....this one time I....you don’t know.........anybody could be.......” -  clearly you skipped step 1. 

This

2 hours ago, Enlightenment said:

@Leo Gura

I haven't tried 5-MeO yet, but I had an experience on DPT of what I would call complete ego death, beyond senses, time and space, the most humbling experience I've ever had. The moment after I came back it felt extremely true. Until I will try 5-MeO, I can't claim it was the same. Reaching absolute infinity through meditation and confirming or denying whether it's the same or different from 5-MeO, this curiosity is something that has motivated me for the last year to do very heavy Samatha practice and I'm not that far away from equanimity stage where I will be able to access it, I think 3 months left max.

It will blow all of that away.

Pure consciousness

[Joseph Maynor]

I'm at a point where talk/thinking/debating is 100% irrelevant.  It's only seeing that's relevant.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I'm at a point where talk/thinking/debating is 100% irrelevant.  It's only seeing that's relevant.

Dang, not too long ago you were Captain Conceptualizer. 

[Joseph Maynor]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Enlightenment That is because they have not reached the deepest levels. They have not accessed Absolute Infinity.

They do not understand what existence is.

It's very hard to reach Absolute Infinity through meditation.

Take 5-MeO and you will see.

Not to say you're wrong, but you better hope you're right since you're so convinced.  The worst thing is to be wrong and have it never cross your mind.  

Edited September 26, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Haumea2018]

Experienced meditation doesn't really mean anything as far as full awakening is concerned.

People need to understand this.

It's not about how long you've been a seeker, it's about how fearless you've been.

It's like there's a chasm and you have to dive in.  Sacrifice everything that you think is "you."

Slay all the dragons guarding the treasure.

It's not time, it's willingness to give it all up.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Haumea2018