mathematics vs philosophy, sex to superconsciousness

[Baotrader]

I've spent some time on a forum debating and arguing about the controversial guru we all know-Osho. What strikes me is that when people argue there's always philosophy behind it. It's hard to tell who's right and who's wrong because any philosophy contains some grain of truth. Philosophy seems like an airy fairy thing-which we cannot use to conclude who's more correct. That's what makes maths different from philosophy. In math we follow certain equations and the result is undisputed. But a question arises: How can we know the basic equation is unquestionably true? In which context does the basic axiom hold true? For example: On planet Earth Euclidian geometry holds true but in space it does not. And as we all know Euclidian geometry axioms have their root coming from the mind.

I dare to say that what makes mathematics more convincing is because we can verify math against physical things on our planet. We can built technology using maths. While in philosophy we see almost no applications. However phiolosophy is like a something we use to choose the direction we want to take. 

The two still share some similarities: There are some stupid philosophy that are downright wrong, like some useless math equatios that do not help increase intelligence at all

From sex to superconsciousness: There's been always a debate. Does orgasm in sex help us reach the nondual state? Or we just should follow the traditional strict path Buddhism touted which is absolute ly no sex? Just sit through all the desires? From my direct experience, orgasm in sex can take us to the meditative state, but not nondual. We will just come back, no breakthrough happens. But the same goes for the traditional meditation method.

What path should we take? Should we add sex to meditation? And how to transmute sexual energy? What I have discover is meditation does increase my sex drive A LOT. I firmly believe anyone who pursues spirituality will at some point have to find a way to transmute sexual energy, not just let all the sperms go out

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Baotrader said:

While in philosophy we see almost no applications.

This is just flat out false.

Philosophy spawned: mathematics, science, civil rights, government, and has had a huge impact on culture and values.

[Baotrader]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is just flat out false.

Philosophy spawned: mathematics, science, civil rights, government, and has had a huge impact on culture and values.

I agree philosophy spawns all but how can you deny mathematicians are more intelligent than other people? I have known my mathematician friend for 10 years and he's not only good at math but also very good at analyzing situation and critical thinking. He's emotionally grounded. Of course intelligence as you say is irreducible and I'm not saying because he's good at math he's good at everything. Hell NO, but math and IT is really the standard to measure one's intelligence.

[kieranperez]

3 hours ago, Baotrader said:

I agree philosophy spawns all but how can you deny mathematicians are more intelligent than other people? I have known my mathematician friend for 10 years and he's not only good at math but also very good at analyzing situation and critical thinking. He's emotionally grounded. Of course intelligence as you say is irreducible and I'm not saying because he's good at math he's good at everything. Hell NO, but math and IT is really the standard to measure one's intelligence.

You’re using your friend as a smoke screen. Sure, I know lead computer scientists that work at Google that are also very articulate, good with girls, etc. and don’t talk like borderline autistic left brained people but people like that tend to be rare. Being a good mathematician or scientist has nothing to do with how emotionally grounded you are. Whether some of this people are or aren’t are independent issues.

There is no such thing as a standard measure of anything because all of that is relative. Just like there is no such thing as a standard human being. IQ is but one test of one type of intellect. Most people don’t have the kinesthetic intelligence I do or most (sub) elite athletes and you better get for the sake of your argument that kinesthetic intelligence is a form of intellect. You can have someone with super high IQ from some meaningless test and have no inflect on how to interact with other human beings. Why? Because he just knows really wel how to be a cold hard computing robot. That person may not have any creative intelligence (which most of them actually don’t). I live in the heart of San Francisco and most people that you argue and seem are truly intelligent are fucking wage slaves because they don’t think for themselves, have any creativ ideas on how to impact the world with their own vision, have their own vision, etc. they just work here at Twitter HQ blocks from me, or Salesforce, or if they’re in an ambitious visionary mood, work for a small startup that probably will fail due to their lack of creative input. 

IQ doesn’t change the world nor does it serve as any standard of inteligence as a whole.

[WelcometoReality]

11 hours ago, Baotrader said:

What path should we take? Should we add sex to meditation? And how to transmute sexual energy? What I have discover is meditation does increase my sex drive A LOT. I firmly believe anyone who pursues spirituality will at some point have to find a way to transmute sexual energy, not just let all the sperms go out

All energies can be transmuted not just sexual energies. A prerequisite for that is to not identify with that energy because if you do it will manifest as that energy. For example anger might arise in the body and if there is identification with it you will release it as the emotion anger. If you don't identify with it there is no need to express it and it will transform.

The same is true for sexual energy or any energy.

[p1xelmonk]

4 hours ago, Baotrader said:

math and IT is really the standard to measure one's intelligence

oh no ..... not this again. this is a huge pile of horseshit that has been fed to you brother.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by p1xelmonk

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Baotrader said:

I agree philosophy spawns all but how can you deny mathematicians are more intelligent than other people? I have known my mathematician friend for 10 years and he's not only good at math but also very good at analyzing situation and critical thinking. He's emotionally grounded. Of course intelligence as you say is irreducible and I'm not saying because he's good at math he's good at everything. Hell NO, but math and IT is really the standard to measure one's intelligence.

Lol

Why would math be a measure of intelligence? You only think that because your culture brainwashed you with this idea that math has high value.

I am pretty bad at math. It is my weakest subject. But I am more intelligent than the world's best mathematicians.

Because my mind is super open, flexible, creative, and intuitive. And because I think integrally, holisitically, metaphysically, and I understand the value of consciousness.

I once tried to explain Absolute Infinity to a university math professor. He didn't get it.

I will take my mind over a mathematician's mind any day.

Show me one mathematician who has cognized infinite intelligence. They basically don't exist.

[Baotrader]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Lol

Why would math be a measure of intelligence? You only think that because your culture brainwashed you with this idea that math has high value.

I am pretty bad at math. It is my weakest subject. But I am more intelligent than the world's best mathematicians.

Because my mind is super open, flexible, creative, and intuitive. And because I think integrally, holisitically, metaphysically, and I understand the value of consciousness.

I once tried to explain Absolute Infinity to a university math professor. He didn't get it.

I will take my mind over a mathematician's mind any day.

Show me one mathematician who has cognized infinite intelligence. They basically don't exist.

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Leo Gura are you giving me consolation? How can someone like you who are good at IT and understand the mathematics of Godel's incompleteness theorems be bad at math? I live in Vietnam where there are a lot of good mathematician like Le Ba Khanh Trinh ( who scored 42/40 in IMO test), Tran Nam Dung and they teach Cantor infinity. I don't know if they truly embrace it though. Ngo Bao Chau ( who won the field medalist) came from my country 

 

[Leo Gura]

I dislike linear logical thinking.

I find it very boring.

I underatand Godel's theorem on a high, metaphysical level. I don't bother with the details of it. The details of things are rarely important to me. All I really care about is the big picture.

[Baotrader]

@Leo Gura the truth is my mind is not flexible enough. The proof is i'm yet to open my mind to what you have said. But if you consistent with yourself how can you know Godel's theorem is correct if you have not read it yet? Just like you say even Sadhguru would have to try psychedelics a dozen times before he can give any judgement? It's just common sense. You'll have to experience something before ypu can say about it

[Nahm]

20 hours ago, Baotrader said:

physical things

This seems to be the a priori thorn. Have you experienced otherwise, yet?

[Baotrader]

5 minutes ago, Nahm said:

This seems to be the a priori thorn. Have you experienced otherwise, yet?

Yes it's just a priori. I guess the best solution for me is to fly to Mexico to try psychedelics. That's probably the only way to shatter the 'physical feeling" that was deeply rooted in my mind/brain

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Baotrader said:

@Leo Gura the truth is my mind is not flexible enough. The proof is i'm yet to open my mind to what you have said. But if you consistent with yourself how can you know Godel's theorem is correct if you have not read it yet? Just like you say even Sadhguru would have to try psychedelics a dozen times before he can give any judgement? It's just common sense. You'll have to experience something before ypu can say about it

I have read it. Just at a high level.

My mind grasps things holistically. It does not need to go through logical steps or formal proofs.

I had understood the essence of Godel's discovery before I even knew Godel existed. Epistemically, the map can never be the territory. Truth cannot be symbolized. It is really obvious that no formal logical system could ever encapsulate the Truth due to the problem of self-reference. Godel intuited this too. Then he formally proved it. Godel intuited the truth of his proof before he created the proof.

[Baotrader]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I have read it. Just at a high level.

My mind grasps things holistically. It does not need to go through logical steps or formal proofs.

I had understood the essence of Godel's discovery before I even knew Godel existed. Epistemically, the map can never be the territory. Truth cannot be symbolized. It is really obvious that no formal logical system could ever encapsulate the Truth due to the problem of self-reference. Godel intuited this too. Then he formally proved it. Godel intuited the truth of his proof before he created the proof.

I've known for so long that you're a real deal. It's just that I have a bad habit of setting a high expectation for teachers. Even though I'm not a very diligent student compared to advanced and extremely high level students. I have a feeling you're a little bit annoyed by my question of qualification (I'm sorry if it's just my projection, maybe you don't feel anything). And even if you're annoyed that's understandable. It's natural to feel that way when a man at a lower state of consciousness ( I )  doubt what you ( at a higher state of consciousness) say.

The point I'm trying to make is intelligent is a very nuanced thing. Surely math is not a 100% accurate standard but what I mean is even if some enlightened beings like Sadhguru or the Buddha really want to be as good as math as Albert Einstein they can not, not even if they learn it in a million years. What I've become conscious of  is there's something called "technical hack" in math and science, physics. There are some very intelligent people but they're not so good math. And if someone is too bad at math ( cannot grasp and solve even basic problem) clearly shows they're not intelligent. 
The second thing I've discovered is mathematicians are usually not so well emotionally grounded. 

[kieranperez]

1 hour ago, Baotrader said:

I've known for so long that you're a real deal. It's just that I have a bad habit of setting a high expectation for teachers. Even though I'm not a very diligent student compared to advanced and extremely high level students. I have a feeling you're a little bit annoyed by my question of qualification (I'm sorry if it's just my projection, maybe you don't feel anything). And even if you're annoyed that's understandable. It's natural to feel that way when a man at a lower state of consciousness ( I )  doubt what you ( at a higher state of consciousness) say.

The point I'm trying to make is intelligent is a very nuanced thing. Surely math is not a 100% accurate standard but what I mean is even if some enlightened beings like Sadhguru or the Buddha really want to be as good as math as Albert Einstein they can not, not even if they learn it in a million years. What I've become conscious of  is there's something called "technical hack" in math and science, physics. There are some very intelligent people but they're not so good math. And if someone is too bad at math ( cannot grasp and solve even basic problem) clearly shows they're not intelligent. 
The second thing I've discovered is mathematicians are usually not so well emotionally grounded. 

So people who have crippling dyslexia are not intelligent by this “logic”. 

Yeah and Albert Einstein probably doesn’t have the bodily intelligence like that of a yogi or of a runner who can run a 100 miler. 

You have a narrow understanding of inteligence. That’s the bottom of this whole. This isn’t you becoming more conscious to these things. 

[Baotrader]

@kieranperez come on, don't feel angry just because i say something that hurts your ego. It's life that some people are not intelligent. We cannot expect to have the world where everyone is intelligent. It's true that people with serious brain injury cannot be intelligent. They can be in a nondual state though. But they cannot think properly and most likely they'll do stupid things. You're using the absolute model of intelligence just to defend your dogma and refuse to accept the harsh part of reality which is some people are born just to fail at life. Of course they can still feel blissful because feeling blissful is natural. 
Can mathematicians be dogmatic and do stupid things? Sure. 
I don't have a narrow understanding of intelligence. There are people who are very creative like novel writer and yet not so good at math. Some even don't have a desire to be good at it whatsoever and that's fine. And surely they can still do stupid things. What I'm saying is intelligence is a nuanced thing. How can you say someone is intelligent if they're rich and successful in their business but fail miserable when they switch to another business type? IF they are naturally intelligent, 99% it will not happen. 
The truth is I have an idealized notion of intelligence. To me, an intelligent man is the one who has an open mind, flexibility, creativity and being able to solve math, physics problems if they really want. If you really have a desire to be a mathematician but feel tired when reading math books, cannot happily prevent yourself from reading they key at the back of the book, it clearly shows you're not VERY intelligent. I'm not saying you cannot be intelligent at all.

[Forestluv]

14 hours ago, Baotrader said:

@Leo Gura  Just like you say even Sadhguru would have to try psychedelics a dozen times before he can give any judgement? It's just common sense. You'll have to experience something before ypu can say about it

How would you advise someone to “experience” Godel’s theorem? 

I think you are conflating direct experience understanding and theoretcal understanding.

[kieranperez]

2 hours ago, Baotrader said:

It's true that people with serious brain injury cannot be intelligent. 

There are plenty of people who are legitimately autistic and are good at math. There are schizophrenics who are good at math. 

2 hours ago, Baotrader said:

they'll do stupid things.

Vague generalization based on what you deem "stupid." Groundless.

2 hours ago, Baotrader said:

There are people who are very creative like novel writer and yet not so good at math.

Creativity is a form of intelligence which most most hyper left-brained rationalists are not in touch with at all because they are undeveloped in that area of intellect and understanding.

2 hours ago, Baotrader said:

I don't have a narrow understanding of intelligence.

You trying to specify and strip intelligence down into one little type of left brained activity is by definition narrow-mindedness. 

2 hours ago, Baotrader said:

How can you say someone is intelligent if they're rich and successful in their business but fail miserable when they switch to another business type? IF they are naturally intelligent, 99% it will not happen.

 By this logic, Trump is a genius. 

2 hours ago, Baotrader said:

To me, an intelligent man is the one who has an open mind, flexibility, creativity and being able to solve math, physics problems if they really want.

Translation: I have this fantasy of intelligence being this way that I imagine and prefer it to be. 

 

[kieranperez]

2 hours ago, Baotrader said:

come on, don't feel angry just because i say something that hurts your ego.

Not angry. I just have no problem robbing you of your fantasies and delusions.

2 hours ago, Baotrader said:

It's true that people with serious brain injury cannot be intelligent. 

There are plenty of people who are legitimately autistic and are good at math. There are schizophrenics who are good at math. 

2 hours ago, Baotrader said:

they'll do stupid things.

Vague generalization based on what you deem "stupid." Groundless.

2 hours ago, Baotrader said:

There are people who are very creative like novel writer and yet not so good at math.

Creativity is a form of intelligence which most most hyper left-brained rationalists are not in touch with at all because they are undeveloped in that area of intellect and understanding.

2 hours ago, Baotrader said:

I don't have a narrow understanding of intelligence.

You trying to specify and strip intelligence down into one little type of left brained activity is by definition narrow-mindedness. 

2 hours ago, Baotrader said:

How can you say someone is intelligent if they're rich and successful in their business but fail miserable when they switch to another business type? IF they are naturally intelligent, 99% it will not happen.

 By this logic, Trump is a genius. 

2 hours ago, Baotrader said:

To me, an intelligent man is the one who has an open mind, flexibility, creativity and being able to solve math, physics problems if they really want.

Translation: I have this fantasy of intelligence being this way that I imagine and prefer it to be. 

 

[Baotrader]

what does math have to do with inability to read and speak? (Dyslexia)? Math is the ability to think logically. Logical understanding does not prevent creativity. It only becomes harmful when one think his logic is all there is. The truth is if you want to build a technology you will need logical steps, not just holistic grasp. 

I'm not saying math is the ultimate standard. No way. But it is surely one of the reliable standard to identify dumb thinking