Whats with all this I'm this stage stuff...

[Mu_]

Is it just me or does it seem impossible to place yourself on a theoretical spiral graph.  I mean how can anyone say how much of their ego is still left or how much awareness, non-duality, oneness one has realized.  I mean its fun and all, but it just seems like a good choose your own adventure on where you think your at, at this point in time, or how ones reflection on themselves/characteristic at a given moment could be summarized to fit neatly on a spiral graph of identification?

Edited September 22, 2018 by Mu_

[Forestluv]

I’d say any theoretical model is over-simplified. The complexity of consciousness is immense. A million books would still be incomplete.

To condense consciousness into a theory that fits into a single book requires simplification. When a person dives really deep into any theory, limitations are revealed. We need to keep adding in more and more nuances.

Perhaps one could ask “Is SD so oversimplified that it is useless?”

Or another question: “Based on the level of over-simplification, what is an appropriate amount of investment?”

IMO, SD is a useful model for personal growth and consciousness work - in a certain context. It can give a person a rough idea where they are at and what lies ahead. It can increase a person’s awareness. For example, a highly intelligent rational/logical person may have assumed rational/logical thinking is the most advanced mode. Afterall, that’s the thinking mode the top scientists and philisophers use. Such a person may be surprised to discover there are at least two more advanced modes of thinking available (relative and systems). This could pique a person’s interest and open their mind to expand and explore new modes of thinking.

I think some problems arise when people over-simplify a simplified theory. For example, assuming that each person can be categorized as blue, orange or green. SD has much greater complexity than that, but people often assume they can categorize a person as simply blue, orange or green.

Another problem I see are SD arguments over how to categorize a person and assumptions that higher levels are better than lower levels.

Also, I think people can use SD to reinforce self delusions. In the forum poll, nearly 30% of forum members believe they are centered at solid yellow or turquoise and only about 5% of members believe they are solid blue to solid orange. I’ve seen people place themselves above Turquoise into a fictitious coral stage that doesn’t even exist yet. IMO there is a lot of self delusion going on - people overestimate their actual stage of development. This can be counter-productive and prevent them from working through their current stage of development. It’s like a freshman student believing they know more than their professors. 

Lastly, people can become ideological with SD and enter a contracted state of mind. Ideally, SD is just one of many theories and methods they are exposed to. 

I like talking SD, yet I want to stay open and balanced with a variety of perspectives and methods.

 

[Leo Gura]

Spiral Dynamics is not a measure of nonduality. It is a measure of cognitive, emotional, moral, and cultural development.

This  a very important distinction.

You can be fully nondual but still at a low level of development. Development is distinct from states of consciousness and you are not going to attain a high level of development merely by sitting on a cushion.

[Mu_]

5 minutes ago, Artaemis said:

Man, who cares about what anyone else is doing. 

Its a tool for some people. 

Whether or not it matters if they are bullshitting themselves is dependent on whether or not its actually helping them function better. If it is, good. Who cares about criticizing them and calling them delusional. 

Let people try to function. Let them try to help themselves the best they know how.

Fair point, I was actually going  to delete my post because of this point exactly, I don't want to take away from anyone helping themselves with something.  Although I did not actually say delusional, but yes perhaps a little critical.  I still may delete it shortly after a question to Leo...

[Mu_]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Spiral Dynamics is not a measure of nonduality. It is a measure of cognitive, emotional, moral, and cultural development.

This  a very important distinction.

You can be fully nondual but still at a low level of development. Development is distinct from states of consciousness and you are not going to attain a high level of development merely by sitting on a cushion.

Good point, one I think Ken said as well.  If thats what it is, then I get it more, although within this spiral thing at yellow/turq it does seem to cross into the realm of non-duality/oneness/truth area.  However still higher development, lower development, arent these all just same same with labels of something called higher than that, and lower then that.  I mean a beaver builds damns, are we higher because we build what we call superior damns?  Or more developed because we can type on a computer or appear to have more meaningful conversations.  I mean beavers can hold their breath longer than you or I

Aren't these emotional/moral/cultural developments just a matter of preference and how the organisim see's/feels/tastes/touches/sense at a particular snip of time pointing at it.

Dont get me wrong, I prefer what would be called a general higher development encouraging some sense of order and non-rapiness, but is this higher on a actual line of development?  I do wonder, is there an actual evolution along these lines like SD depicts or is it more of a here are now as a result of god, and its not really so linear or needing of some sort of life over time or lifetimes?  I honestly dont know.....

[Faceless]

45 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

The complexity of consciousness is immense

Indeed

45 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

A million books would still be incomplete.

Indeed...as a million books ? cannot contain that which is brought about by just ?One unitary HOLISTIC insight (i.e INFINITE INTELLIGENCE). 

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

@Mu_

I understand what you mean?

[Joseph Maynor]

All it can be is a tool to help your own growth.  The theory can only serve the practice of your life.  Everything else is a distraction if it’s tangential to you living your life better.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Artaemis said:

Do you think enlightenment can speed up the rate in which you move up through the stages?

Of course states and stages feed into each other, but are also distinct.

[NoSelfSelf]

@Leo Gura what can make you developed it seems to me now its the quality of your mindsets and how you apply them..?

[Timotheus]

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Spiral Dynamics is not a measure of nonduality. It is a measure of [...] emotional, [...] development.

How do mental illnesses fit into this model? For example psychopathy, as it does not seem to relate to universal care and if it's not possible to heal this "illness" one cannot evolve further? Or is psychopathy just an extreme case of a certain emotional underdevelopment?

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Timotheus said:

How do mental illnesses fit into this model? For example psychopathy, as it does not seem to relate to universal care and if it's not possible to heal this "illness" one cannot evolve further? Or is psychopathy just an extreme case of a certain emotional underdevelopment?

Mental illness can happen at any stage. But more common at lower stages simply because it's hard to get to a high stage with an unresolved mental illness.

Most mental illness can be healed. It usually requires doing the right inner work which people are not taught how to do.

It doesn't really make sense to me how a mental illness will survive deep consciousness work unless you got some physical brain injury.

[Hellspeed]

A nice bait, to calm down the emotional challenged  & a useful tool for capitalism.