How do you talk with stage RED??

[Michael569]

My sister is currently heavily stuck in stage red.

--> Massive rebellion against family and anyone trying to offer an advice, talking shit, hating people, hanging out with dysfunctional people, avoiding duties and responsibilities, constantly blaming everybody for her problems..when trying to find a job, she would get discouraged and give up after first failure calling everybody "fucking c***s in ties and suits."

My question is: Is there any point trying to talk sense to her and potentially opening her eyes towards more BLUE or does every stage need to awaken on its own otherwise I'll only face a lot of ego-backlash. 

And before you say that I am judgemental and not loving, believe me that I am trying to be loving and understanding but any effort for meaningful conversation ends up in being called "gay treehugger and loser"

 

 

[Colin]

haven't read it yet, but this book might offer some insight.



"Highlighting the fascinating link between a child’s neurological development and the way a parent reacts to misbehavior, No-Drama Discipline provides an effective, compassionate road map for dealing with tantrums, tensions, and tears—without causing a scene.
 
Defining the true meaning of the “d” word (to instruct, not to shout or reprimand), the authors explain how to reach your child, redirect emotions, and turn a meltdown into an opportunity for growth. By doing so, the cycle of negative behavior (and punishment) is essentially brought to a halt, as problem solving becomes a win/win situation. Inside this sanity-saving guide you’ll discover
 
• strategies that help parents identify their own discipline philosophy—and master the best methods to communicate the lessons they are trying to impart 
• facts on child brain development—and what kind of discipline is most appropriate and constructive at all ages and stages
• the way to calmly and lovingly connect with a child—no matter how extreme the behavior—while still setting clear and consistent limits
• tips for navigating your child through a tantrum to achieve insight, empathy, and repair
• twenty discipline mistakes even the best parents make—and how to stay focused on the principles of whole-brain parenting and discipline techniques
 
Complete with candid stories and playful illustrations that bring the authors’ suggestions to life, No-Drama Discipline shows you how to work with your child’s developing mind, peacefully resolve conflicts, and inspire happiness and strengthen resilience in everyone in the family."

[Forestluv]

I would consider this a red/blue hybrid issue. It's red because of the knee-jerk reaction of primal emotions. It's blue because of the "either / or" thinking. 

I was in a relationship with someone locked into this "either / or" thinking. She would tend to blame me and others for any problem in her life. When I pressed her to look at how she is contributing to the problem she would flip to the other extreme and shout "Well then, I guess it's all my fault. I'm a terrible person and a rotten girlfriend. You should just find someone new".

This made it impossible to work through conflict. It was either 100% my fault or 100% her fault. Over and over I tried to explain to her that we are both contributing to the problem. Perhaps 50% her and 50% me. I would tell her what I thought my part in the problem was and how I needed to grow and change to resolve the conflict. Then I asked her how she was contributing. She only had black and white thinking and was unable to think along these lines. She could not share the responsibility. She could only think in terms of how everything was EITHER my fault (and lock down) OR everything was her fault and she was a terrible person (and lock down).

Either / Or thinking is characteristic of Blue Stage. Thinking in terms of continuums and shades of grey is Orange level thinking. So I tried another approach. I accepted 95% of the responsibility for the conflict and asked her to take 5% responsibility. I would explain 10 ways my behavior contributed to the problem, how what I did contributed to the problem and what I needed to do to help resolve the conflict. I then asked her to name just ONE thing she did that contributed to the conflict. She was unable to. She could only think in terms of 100% my fault or 100% her fault. 

I've found that I can't communicate well with a person that is 100% blaming others or 100% self critical. Both extremes put up walls and prevent discussion. 

To me, the underlying issue is more at the Orange level. She needs to develop rational thinking. Either / Or thinking in the context you described is irrational. As a starting point, I would acknowledge that other people are contributing to the problem. Then, I would see if I could crack the door open and see if she is willing to take a small step and accept ANY responsibility. Even accepting a tiny bit of responsibility is a big deal. For someone limited to either / or thinking, going from taking 0% responsibility to taking 1% responsibility is the hardest and biggest step. Once they really accept 1% responsibility - you have broken the "either / or" mindset. She is now in the continuum of responsibility and you can work with her.

This either / or thinking doesn't just apply to personal responsibility and blaming others. For example, I know gun rights enthusiasts locked into either / or thinking. From their perspective the gun law issue comes down: EITHER all guns are legal OR all guns are illegal. It is an irrational position, yet most rational thinkers on the issue do not understand the other person is locked into Either / Or thinking.

Another approach for an either / or thinker is to push their 100% position and make it even more extreme. For example, one might tell ask them if military machine guns should be legal. One could ask them if hand grenades and rocket launchers should be legal. If it should be legal for children to use machine guns. If you can get the person to accept ANY gun law restriction - e.g. military machine guns should be illegal - you have knocked the person off of taking a 100% either / or position. Then, I get excited and say "Great! We agree that some weapons should be illegal!! We both agree a line should be drawn between the two extremes. We just disagree where that line should be drawn". Then it is possible to have a rational discussion. The entire tone of the conversation can change and the two people may discuss where the line should be drawn.

[Key Elements]

5 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

"either / or" thinking.

You wrote good information. However, I find ppl of this mindset the hardest to change. Looks like some ppl get stuck here for the rest of their lives, esp when they're old, and in that case, they may be stuck for good. I had to deal with some old relatives. They saw me make a designer's website by using another person's skills. I had to learn what's entrepreneurship and networking.  In the end, they were kind of impressed--not really though. They didn't know that there's another way of doing things. But, during the process, they were giving me all the wrong advices on how should I approach in making a website. They said to forget about it because I didn't have the skills. They didn't see what's the use for it. Yes, stage orange is the next step. Maybe if the person is young, you could teach by example easier. 

[Forestluv]

41 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

You wrote good information. However, I find ppl of this mindset the hardest to change. Looks like some ppl get stuck here for the rest of their lives, esp when they're old, and in that case, they may be stuck for good. I had to deal with some old relatives. 

I agree. Going beyond "either / or" thinking is a big challenge - especially for those raised in Blue environments. My parents are still locked into either / or thinking. 

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Michael569 said:

My sister is currently heavily stuck in stage red.

--> Massive rebellion against family and anyone trying to offer an advice, talking shit, hating people, hanging out with dysfunctional people, avoiding duties and responsibilities, constantly blaming everybody for her problems..when trying to find a job, she would get discouraged and give up after first failure calling everybody "fucking c***s in ties and suits."

My question is: Is there any point trying to talk sense to her and potentially opening her eyes towards more BLUE or does every stage need to awaken on its own otherwise I'll only face a lot of ego-backlash. 

And before you say that I am judgemental and not loving, believe me that I am trying to be loving and understanding but any effort for meaningful conversation ends up in being called "gay treehugger and loser"

If you don't mind my asking, how old is your sister?  I ask because my advice will vary. 

But this actually sounds more like excessive stage Orange to be honest. The kind of anti-establishment "fuck the sheeple" thing, comes from Orange's individualism and resistance to blue.

You won't be able to get her to go blue. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Emerald

[Solace]

Be the change you wish to see in her.

And if she is aggressive towards anyone leave her. It’s her soul trying to tell you, “I can’t even love myself right now, let alone you, so please give me some space and come again later”.

People don’t like it when other people want them to change, and do things. It hurts when you feel depressed and then someone comes up to you and says, “By the way, you are living your life wrong”. Recognize healing takes time and space, when she sees you being a ray of sunshine in her life this will help and inspire her the most. And giving a genuine compliment regularly to her (start really small or she’ll notice) instead of “advice” is very healing, and benifits both of you so much.

Everything in this life is a blessing in disguise. Even she is here to help you by you being more kind in your response to suffering eventually leading both of you to a reality of deep peace.

[Michael569]

15 hours ago, Emerald said:

If you don't mind my asking, how old is your sister?  I ask because my advice will vary. 

But this actually sounds more like excessive stage Orange to be honest. The kind of anti-establishment "fuck the sheeple" thing, comes from Orange's individualism and resistance to blue.

You won't be able to get her to go blue. 

@EmeraldShe is 23, recently finished the uni. I was considering Orange but to me it seems there is way too much aggresive selfishnes in there, especially the unhealthy selfishness, I'd say. The use of foul words, the rebellion, being rude to parents and the people she hangs out with. Also a massively selfish behaviour and tendency to manipulate people towards serving her needs. 

@Solace, thanks. Yeah, perhaps I should stop trying to remedy and simply let go. 

@Serotoninluv, @Key Elements thanks guys. I like the idea of increasing responsibility starting from 1%. You are right once the resistance shell has been cracked, the person probably won't notice a small gradual increase in the responsibility. 

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Michael569
wording

[Consept]

16 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

I agree. Going beyond "either / or" thinking is a big challenge - especially for those raised in Blue environments. My parents are still locked into either / or thinking. 

Interesting couple of posts, just to expand on your point a bit. I think that the either/or thinking has benefits for the person because it completely absolves themselves of any responsibility, so if its everyone else's fault obviously its not theirs, but then if its their fault, theyre just a bad person and theres nothing that can be done about that. It views the world in a way where things just happen to them, what makes it worse is that it directly affects their life. This is a completely fearful reaction to life, but what makes it tricky is the mental gymnastics needed to have this position, so talking someone out of it is very difficult.

Sometimes the best way i for the person to see how bad it can get, its just a question of how bad does it need to be before you take responsibility, some people can drop quite far down but ,although it sounds morbid, they may need to get to the stage where they choice is killing yourself or taking responsibility and doing something to improve your situation. But humans sometimes will not change unless they 100% have to 

[eleveneleven]

I could be wrong, but consider this angle perhaps: Maybe she is rebelling because she just doesn't want the same things most people want in this world, and yet is being presented with only a few set, narrow paths to adulthood. Seeing that she's being forced into a cookie-cutter mold, and not realizing that she can just carve her own path (nobody ever tells you that you're free, usually, so she may not realize), her reaction is just to rebel and wiggle her middle finger at the world.

It's understandable, in a sense. When a person behaves that way, it's usually because they feel misunderstood and are terrified that there may be no way for them to fill their needs in this world. Some people get depressed and lock themselves up in a room, and other people get testy and start listening to Insane Clown Posse.

She may be giving up at the first sign of failure because she doesn't want that corporate life. It's easy to give up when you have no real desire for the end goal. Maybe she only just realized that and is pissed off because she feels like she wasted her time in school.

Perhaps she just needs someone to tell her, "Okay, you don't want to have a normal job working for people in suits? Fine. You don't have to do that. You're not doing anybody any favors by forcing yourself, either. BUT, this means you'll have to be hella creative to make a living, much more creative than most people. So put your money where your mouth is and prove to this gay tree hugger that you're not a sheeple." Or something like that.

Forget what stage she is; just try to understand her position from her perspective as best you can. Even if she just keeps responding that you're gay, you may be planting a seed in her mind that will bear fruit later. (Fruit...gay. There's a pun there somewhere.)

[Forestluv]

14 hours ago, Consept said:

Interesting couple of posts, just to expand on your point a bit. I think that the either/or thinking has benefits for the person because it completely absolves themselves of any responsibility, so if its everyone else's fault obviously its not theirs, but then if its their fault, theyre just a bad person and theres nothing that can be done about that. It views the world in a way where things just happen to them, what makes it worse is that it directly affects their life. This is a completely fearful reaction to life, but what makes it tricky is the mental gymnastics needed to have this position, so talking someone out of it is very difficult.

Sometimes the best way i for the person to see how bad it can get, its just a question of how bad does it need to be before you take responsibility, some people can drop quite far down but ,although it sounds morbid, they may need to get to the stage where they choice is killing yourself or taking responsibility and doing something to improve your situation. But humans sometimes will not change unless they 100% have to 

Very insightful!

And as they blame others - they insist others take responsibility. It’s a vicious spiral downward.

I’ve tended to be on the other end - taking too much responsibility. I dated a narcissist and she tormented me in this area.

[ajasatya]

@Michael569 the best thing you can do is listen. it doesn't matter what stage the other person is at.

[Forestluv]

@Joseph Maynor Reminder: No ALL CAPS posts.

[Forestluv]

My understanding is all caps is ok in journals, but not in community sections

[Salcedoop]

@Solace 

On 21/9/2018 at 7:27 PM, Solace said:

Be the change you wish to see in her.

And if she is aggressive towards anyone leave her. It’s her soul trying to tell you, “I can’t even love myself right now, let alone you, so please give me some space and come again later”.

People don’t like it when other people want them to change, and do things. It hurts when you feel depressed and then someone comes up to you and says, “By the way, you are living your life wrong”. Recognize healing takes time and space, when she sees you being a ray of sunshine in her life this will help and inspire her the most. And giving a genuine compliment regularly to her (start really small or she’ll notice) instead of “advice” is very healing, and benifits both of you so much.

Everything in this life is a blessing in disguise. Even she is here to help you by you being more kind in your response to suffering eventually leading both of you to a reality of deep peace.

Great insight! I'm in total agreement. I would like to add that this is no easy feat, especially with family members. Remember to practice and be patient with yourself first!

Edited September 26, 2018 by Salcedoop