I wish Jordan Peterson wasn't such a pussy sometimes lol

[Joseph Maynor]

 

51 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

JP is not popular because he helps evolve Blue people but because his philosophy is the perfect excuse for Blue people to never evolve. The Blue ego seeks sources to tell it that Blue is best and there is no higher to go. Blue has this need and Blue will pull out their wallet to pay for it being met.

Trashing JP is not the point. The point is to be aware of the Trojan horse.

Good points.  Personal Development is corrupted like every other industry is by Egoic distractions.

[tsuki]

On 20.09.2018 at 8:35 AM, Leo Gura said:

Libertarianism is a stage Orange trap. It will not solve those social issues. It will actually worsen them.

You are NOT going to curb pollution by deregulation. You will only get more pollution.

In a free marketplace, ego will exploit, dominate, monopolize, and enslave everyone it can, until it stopped by use of force.

Libertarianism is fundamentally untenable because it does not understand how ego works, how exploitative ego is.

If allowed, ego will enslave and rape. The history books are filled with that.

You cannot tame the ego to good behavior through reason and moral principles, as libertarians imagine. State use of force is absolutely required.

Anarchism is even more naive and foolish than libertarianism.

@Leo Gura You have a good point here. My question is: what is the solution?
Regulation is nothing else than creating a big ego to suppress a mass of small egos.
If we need to check the small egos, then what checks the big ego? 
Are we wishing that these egos become occupied with each other and find a way to function?

How is that any different from what we have right now?

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@Leo Gura You have a good point here. My question is: what is the solution?
Regulation is nothing else than creating a big ego to suppress a mass of small egos.
If we need to check the small egos, then what checks the big ego? 
Are we wishing that these egos become occupied with each other and find a way to function?

How is that any different from what we have right now?

High quality science-based regulation is exactly the solution. We regulate those parts of society which behave too egotistically and are hurting the whole.

Government is an agreement between people to regulate each other for the good of all. That's what government is! The answer to bad government is always better, more scientific, more precise government. Not less government. Government must grow as the complexity of the human super-organism grows.

You cannot have a highly complex organism (human society) without strict rules and regulations. Regulations actually enable high degrees of complexity. You cannot have a human body if each cell says "Fuck you, regulation is bad, freedom!" Then you have chaos.

Freedom IS chaos! Order is regulation.

What people do not understand is that humans are not individuals, we are a hive mind and all future forms of the human super-organism will involve higher and higher degrees of integration until eventually there will not be human individuals are all! It will be one collective mind integrating human brains with super AI and all kinds of other technology into one giant mega-conscious integral super-organism. For that to happen, you gotta get over yourself.

This is not about you. This is about YOU!

In the end, you will be assimilated, over your cold body if necessary. Because that is what evolution is. It integrates, then sub-framents, then integrates, then sub-fragments like a fractual to infinity.

You have no choice about any of this. It will happen whether you resist it or not. The ego always loses.

JP and his egotistical followers will all be integrated in the end.

[tsuki]

@Leo Gura Your answer is very entertaining (sorry!), but you haven't answered what I feel to be the central question:

39 minutes ago, tsuki said:

If we need to check the small (individual) egos, then what checks the big (collective) ego? 

I am not for, or against freedom. There is freedom in regulation and there is regulation in freedom. Even if:

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Freedom IS chaos! Order is regulation.

Edited September 21, 2018 by tsuki

[Leo Gura]

Reality is one system. There is nothing to check it but itself.

The only check to pathological government is healthy government. There both is and is not a check on government. Government is the result of egos enslaving other egos, but then softened by egos voting to make the government more healthy. It's a complex strange loop. Once you are assimilated, you have some say in how the super-organism should work.

Yes, order and disorder, freedom and regulation are the yin-yang. That is the dualistic play of God.

We need to not only check the small egos, we need to check the large corporate egos. Without regulation there will be corporate enslavement. This is already the case. The problem with corporations, unlike individual humans, is that I'm not sure how conscious they can be. A human can become enlightened or at least do spiritual practice. A human has a conscience and sense of morality. A corporation... not so much. At least not in their current configuration.

Corporations make this whole game more tricky because there are 4 entities now within this super-organism: humans, corporations, local governments, and national governments. All 4 need to figure out a way to play together nicely. And then there is global governance of all nations to be considered. The challenge is how to best integrate them all. There are no easy black and white answers. The solutions are nuanced, complex, and really a topic for scientific research.

The problem is that stage Blue/Orange people have very simplistic answers which will not possibly work -- they have already run their course. Stage Green is much better, but still not integral enough. Stage Yellow is what we really need most urgently, but to get to Yellow, we need more people at Green.

[tsuki]

So, it seems @Leo Gura that what is lost on me is your, hmm, fixation (?) on complexity of reality.
I wouldn't say that we're any more complex as a collective organism than we were, lets say - 10000 years ago.
Now, we have all the knowledge and all the names for various constructs and interactions, but the underlying principle is the same.

We still have no clue what is going on, and we still try to control the outcome.
The only change we have created is that instead of being lost in unconsciousness - we are lost in knowledge.
Human race has not solved even a single problem. We have only renamed them, or moved them out of our field of view.

Edited September 21, 2018 by tsuki

[Leo Gura]

@tsuki That is where you are wrong. An enormous amount of evolutionary development has happened in the last 2000 years of human civilization.

Your view of evolution is very materialist and limited.

Evolution is NOT a biological process happening through DNA. Evolution is a universal process happening through every single movement of every molecule through every scale of order, from the subatomic to cellular to the cultural to the galactic.

You grossly underestimate how much reality has changed in the last 10,000 years and are taking many evolutionary developments completely for granted, like the invention of mathematics, science, language, history, psychology, biology, logic, government, laws, human rights, education, housing, etc. None of these things were a given. They all had to evolve through lots of conflict and struggle.

The human race has solved billions of problems. Which is why you can sit there and enjoy a life of non-slavery, or why you even think you are a biological organism. You are taking your current Spiral stage completely for granted. As if humans like you were just born 10,000 years ago.

Life does not stand still! Evolution is at work, and it has a particular direction: towards increasing consciousness. Life is not some random accident. In the next 1000 years human society will change so radically it will be unrecognizable and horrifying to most egos. Luckily, they'll be long dead.

[tsuki]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Evolution is NOT a biological process happening through DNA.

I never said that it is a biological process.

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Evolution is a universal process happening through every single movement of every molecule through every scale of order, from the subatomic to cellular to the cultural to the galactic.

Yes, and it leads exactly nowhere and it has always been heading that way. 
The idea that any individual human, corporation, or government or a planet has any influence on it is just silly.
This very notion of control over the process has been the curse of humanity from time immemorial.
All problems that we're facing today were yesterdays' solutions.
We're trapped in our collective monkey-mind as a fireman that ignorantly takes a flamethrower for an extinguisher. 
The cosmic irony is that we all know how it is going to end and we simply distract ourselves, chasing our own tail.

Relax Leo, I'm not a problem to be solved.

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You grossly underestimate how much reality has changed in the last 10,000 years and are taking many evolutionary developments completely for granted, like the invention of mathematics, science, language, history, psychology, biology, logic, government, laws, human rights, etc.

No, I don't. You're jumping the gun.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, tsuki said:

The idea that any individual human, corporation, or government or a planet has any influence on it is just silly.

What is silly is to think that even one molecule in the whole of creation is extraneous and unnecessary.

There is no one in control of the process. It's a universal unfolding. Every letter you type is part of this unfolding.

JP's bullshit is part of this unfolding. And so is my calling him out on his bullshit. And so it your calling me out for calling him out.

See how this works?

[tsuki]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What is silly is to think that any one molecule in the whole of creation is extraneous.

I'm sorry for calling you silly. I just don't understand you.
I think that we agree on that quote though.

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no one in control of the process. It's a universal unfolding. Every letter you type is part of the unfolding.

Yes. What I'm asking is: where does the need to change the unfolding come from? It's perfect.
(I just realized that I could ask myself this very question)

Edited September 21, 2018 by tsuki

[yawning_]

@tsuki

if i may interject here,

change is continual, it is the "unfolding" - there is no need

 

there is no stagnation implied in it being perfect, any holding on or resistance to what is - is reaction/representative of the ego

 

 

n̥̘̠͈ͬͪ̐̎ͯͬ̆̐̅͊́ͤ͋ͬͨ͗̓̔ͤa̯̦̙̞̰̝͍͙̽̔̉ͮ͊̿̈̓ͅm̰̪̗̱͖̣͇̘̝͊̀͒̌a͚̺̺̱͖͙͚͓̘̭̰̦ͫ̽̈̇ͨ͛̓͗ͮ̇ͩ̚s̥̱͉̣͍͕̰ͨ̎ͧ̇̉̍t͉͙͎͖̉̈́̋͂̂ͪͥ̋̒̏͋̓̏ͫ̽͛ͥ͆̒ė̪̙̬̦͉̳̲̫͕̯̲̈͆͆̎

 

- yawning gap

[tsuki]

18 minutes ago, yawning_ said:

change is continual, it is the "unfolding" - there is no need
there is no stagnation implied in it being perfect, any holding on or resistance to what is - is reaction/representative of the ego

Agreed.
Change is continual and surrender is presence.
Permanence is an illusion and clinging is egoic.
Here comes a (tangent) question: Isn't change permanent?
Isn't therefore presence the other face of ego?

What is the difference in going either way?

Edited September 21, 2018 by tsuki

[Leo Gura]

59 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Yes. What I'm asking is: where does the need to change the unfolding come from? It's perfect.

"The prophet Mohammed, who, when one day he saw a Bedouin leaving his camel without tethering it, questioned him as to why he was doing this. The Bedouin replied that he was placing his trust in Allah and had no need to tie the camel. The prophet Mohammed then replied, 'Tie your camel and place your trust in Allah.' "

Politics is the domain of survival. If I was to drive a dump truck full of toxic chemicals to your house and dump it on your front lawn, you would not say, "Okay, no problem. It's perfect." You would say, "No! This should be against the law. Stop polluting my lawn." And thus regulation was born.

"Trust in God, but tie your camel."

Another illustrative story:

A holy man fell off the side of a large ship and was drowning in the sea. He started to pray for God to save him. Over and over again the crew tossed out life preservers to the drowning man, but over and over again he refused because his faith was so strong that he knew God would save him. Finally he drowned. When he arrived in Heaven he saw God and started yelling at him: "I was your most faithful servant! Why didn't you save me from drowning?!!!" And God replied, "I threw you the life preserver over and over again."

[cetus]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A holy man fell off the side of a large ship and was drowning in the sea. He started to pray for God to save him. Over and over again the crew tossed out life preservers to the drowning man, but over and over again he refused because his faith was so strong that he knew God would save him. Finally he drowned. When he arrived in Heaven he saw God and started yelling at him: "I was your most faithful servant! Why didn't you save me from drowning?!!!" And God replied, "I threw you the life preserver over and over again."

@Leo Gura Lol

[tsuki]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Politics is the domain of survival. If I was to drive a dump truck full of toxic chemicals to your house and dump it on your front lawn, you would not say, "Okay, no problem. It's perfect." You would say, "No! This is against the law."

So, we need law to protect us from the problems that we created (toxic waste) by solving other problems we created (easier survival)?
Not only that, but we also call law a problem that needs to be solved to become 'humane'. lol

Edited September 21, 2018 by tsuki

[yawning_]

@tsuki

9 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Isn't change permanent?

rather than permanent, one could say ever-present or better yet ever-essence

 

10 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Isn't therefore presence the other face of ego?

ego has many faces for sure, all of which may be traced back to identification/categorization/reaction - even the movement of tracing/connecting thought itself [it-is-self] can only be action of the ego

 

bless!

 

n͎̞̥̣͈̪̤͚̰̤̊̔ͩ̾̏ͥͦ͆̈́͐̈ͩ̍ͪ̓̂a̜̞̤͍̹̮͈̪͍͕͎͔ͤ̿̆̓̒̇͋͋ͮͨͅm̞̤̤̻̗̣̠͉̥͈̳̯͙̞̤̰͙̭̃ͪͩ͒͐͆̍͐̇̓ͩ̀a͉̙̞̻̬̹͑̈́ͦ̓̋ͮ̒͗͑ͧ͐͆̍̀̂̋̚s̼̲̱̺̲̦̼͕̯̟̰̲̳͍̩̞̬̔̆͐́ͩ̏̊ͤ͐ͦͣ̓̔ͬͩͦͥ͂̉t̠̤̺͖̦͚̫ͫͨ̇̇͆ͤ̌ͯ͊ͧ̌ͬ̿ͅe̬͎̘̰̝̺̥̫̗͔̥̖̦̺̻̖̝̿́̈́ͯ̂ͦ̔̈̿̎̿̅ͭͤͦ̄

 

- yawning gap

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, tsuki said:

So, we need law to protect us from the problems that we created (toxic waste) by solving other problems we created (easier survival)?

Of course!

Every evolutionary step creates a cascade of new survival challenges. That is life! That is governance.

If you don't like living, you are welcome to exit this ride at any time. But the rest of us want some semblance of decent and effective government.

[tsuki]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you don't like living, you are welcome to exit this ride at any time. But the rest of us want some semblance of decent and effective government.

Right, because all of a sudden I have a choice to do whatever I want and I am definitely not a part/whole of the unfolding .
Free will definitely exists and we all do it not out of deep, deep, ignorance .

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course!

Every evolutionary step creates a cascade of new survival challenges. That is life! That is governance.

Okay! Why is it so sickening though?

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Right, because all of a sudden I have a choice to do whatever I want and I am definitely not a part/whole of the unfolding .
Free will definitely exists and we all do it not out of deep, deep, ignorance .

Your exit would be part of the unfolding. Some people are just too foolish to survive

Quote

Okay! Why is it so sickening though?

Sickening?? Not sure what that means.

The only sickening part is the foolishness of people who are clearly engaged in survival but so unaware of it that they don't understand the imperatives of survival and thus the importance of good governance.

But hey, sickness is part of the unfolding. Just don't expect the rest of us to jump on the JP sickness bandwagon, which is headed off a cliff.

[Brittany]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Reality is one system. There is nothing to check it but itself.

The only check to pathological government is healthy government. There both is and is not a check on government. Government is the result of egos enslaving other egos, but then softened by egos voting to make the government more healthy. It's a complex strange loop. Once you are assimilated, you have some say in how the super-organism should work.

Yes, order and disorder, freedom and regulation are the yin-yang. That is the dualistic play of God.

We need to not only check the small egos, we need to check the large corporate egos. Without regulation there will be corporate enslavement. This is already the case. The problem with corporations, unlike individual humans, is that I'm not sure how conscious they can be. A human can become enlightened or at least do spiritual practice. A human has a conscience and sense of morality. A corporation... not so much. At least not in their current configuration.

Corporations make this whole game more tricky because there are 4 entities now within this super-organism: humans, corporations, local governments, and national governments. All 4 need to figure out a way to play together nicely. And then there is global governance of all nations to be considered. The challenge is how to best integrate them all. There are no easy black and white answers. The solutions are nuanced, complex, and really a topic for scientific research.

The problem is that stage Blue/Orange people have very simplistic answers which will not possibly work -- they have already run their course. Stage Green is much better, but still not integral enough. Stage Yellow is what we really need most urgently, but to get to Yellow, we need more people at Green.

I don't think you are realizing how much you agree with Jordan Peterson.

He is doing the same thing as you are suggesting. It's just Peterson's methods of "keeping the ego in check" suck. haha That's it. But he is ultimately trying to do the same thing you are suggesting. He sees this huge problem too. 

As the world goes into nihilism, we need structure......but "where" and "who" will create the structure?

Jordan Peterson is suggesting to create the structure from tradition, stories, and mythology. Which sucks. haha But it doesn't mean he doesn't see the big picture.

Quote from Nietzsche which I feel is the spirit and the soul behind Peterson's anxiety and fear:

"...For when Truth battles against the lies of millennia there will be shock waves, earthquakes, the transposition of hills and valleys such as the world has never yet imagined even in its dreams. The concept "politics” then becomes entirely absorbed into the realm of spiritual warfare. All the mighty worlds of the ancient order of society are blown into space—for they are all based on lies: there will be wars the like of which have never been seen on earth before. Only after me will there be grand politics on earth" .

I would recommend watching the second debate between Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris. It puts Jordan in a better light regarding his agenda.

Peterson's foundation comes from the blue stage viewpoint of "human nature is corrupt without an external source"

Peterson needs someone to challenge him on this. 

But he is not completely blind. He just fell into a hole that he needs help out of. Sam Harris can't help him out of this hole. He needs someone else.