Can people that have achieved nonduality experience duality again?

[Mezanti]

It's a thought provoking subject for me

Can people that have achieved nonduality experience duality again?

I have 2 views on this.

1. Like working out, when you stop you lose your gains. One would presume that achieving non duality and then quitting the practices that got you there in the first       place would cause your ego to redevelop itself once again, slowly and then at once you would lose non duality, and fall back into duality.

2. But then the other side of the story would suggest that once you've understood it, there isn't going back, despite stopping spiritual practices, since its a reality             that you've grasped and then it's something you can't forget, since you see it working through everything.

i haven't the slightest clue as to which one to go with.

 

Share your thoughts 

[eputkonen]

Duality is an illusion...it is just a thought.  What you experience now is nonduality.
 

After "achieving nonduality" - which I guess would be equivalent to seeing through the illusion of duality - would not mean the world looks any different (by the eye).  It is just understood differently...what is lacking is the belief that anything is separate.

Once the illusion of duality is seen through, it is never believed again.  So there is no going back or losing it.

Edited September 18, 2018 by eputkonen

[Flow With Life]

Sure you can.

Unenlightened. Non-duality is not realized.

Do 5-MeO-DMT. Non-duality is realized.

Come down. Non-duality is not realized.

Ta-da.

[Leo Gura]

It's very common to have brief glimpses of nonduality and then fall back into duality.

But after a certain point, after enough glimpses, something should crack in you and then nonduality becomes your permanent way of seeing the world.

[Enlightenment]

@eputkonen I disagree. Have you actually tried through effort and strong intention to "come back" to dualistic perspective? Because how can you know if you haven't actually tried? I have that non-dual perspective almost 2 years now, and can bring myself out of it quite easily by doing the opposite method that has gotten me there.

 

Yes they can, but most of them have not even tried seriously

Edited September 18, 2018 by Enlightenment

[eputkonen]

@Enlightenment , doesn't sound like true nondual revelation if there is a "me" that can go into and out of "that non-dual perspective".

Why would one then try to go back into delusion and try to believe what has been clearly seen to be falsehood?

[Enlightenment]

@eputkonen Just out of curiosity of whether or not is it possible. I don't do that anymore but just to be clear I think it is possible if you apply a proper method, however, it's very persistent if you don't intentionally try to take it off, I would say almost permanent.

[Shadowraix]

I don't think understanding once pursuing nonduality is ever lost - but I do think one can not think about that understanding and focus solely on more materialistic dualistic perceptions of life.

Going towards this path means a lot of alienation from a major portion of unconscious society, and well, im sure there are plenty of people who went back to fit in before finally being able to break the shell.

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, eputkonen said:

Duality is an illusion...it is just a thought.  What you experience now is nonduality.
 

After "achieving nonduality" - which I guess would be equivalent to seeing through the illusion of duality - would not mean the world looks any different (by the eye).  It is just understood differently...what is lacking is the belief that anything is separate.

Once the illusion of duality is seen through, it is never believed again.  So there is no going back or losing it.

To me, what you describe seems more like a concept of nonduality. The direct experience of nonduality is much different than the intellectual concept. 

Regarding my direct nondual experience:  When I go full-on nondual, there is no "me". There is no distinction between me and anything in my environment. I pretty much just sit or lie down and stare. Perhaps I can walk a bit. Yet, I couldn't do even the most basic tasks like cooking dinner. I wouldn't know the difference between me, a knife and broccoli. I can't speak, since language is dualistic. Words no longer make sense. I wouldn't be able to recognize my girlfriend or my mother. All distinctions dissolve. . .  I need to have a dualistic perspective to function in life. To cook, drive a car, paying my bills etc. I can't imagine trying to drive a car in a nondual mindstate - there would be no distinctions between me, the car, the road and other cars.

 

[Leo Gura]

@Serotoninluv Well, you gotta be careful with comparing a 5-MeO peak experience with something like Sahaja samadhi, which is what @eputkonen is talking about.

You can function very well from abiding nondual awareness. But not so much on a 5-MeO peak. The 5-MeO peak is too nondual to be practical for everyday living. Which is precisely why normal and even enlightened people are not that conscious 24/7. At a certain point you can become so conscious that there is no world any more.

[Baotrader]

en@Serotoninluv Osho once said it's hard for enlightened pp to do anything. After enlightenment his body became very weak. Is it possible that peak enlightenment means physical death for the body? I have some glimses of nondual awareness and experience of no self but my body does not get weakened much. It does get weaker a little bit like i cannot sustain 9am sunray anymore. However, my sex drive increases a lot but in a good way. I no longer just like a good smell from girl but also the smell of the armpit. It's weird. I always found it disgusting before. It's like my body now wants to experience both the good and the bad. Can you share any thougths or experience? You said you had taken 70 trips?

[WelcometoReality]

@Mezanti I'm going to use different words to describe this. What you call non duality I call the absolute. And to experience the absolute is blissful. And when you first experience that state you never want it to end, so when it does you feel bad and want to go back into that state.

When the absolute state return you feel wonderful again. For each iteration of this the one that holds on to different states dissolves until there is no one there to hold on. And then there is the true non dual state. No holding on or resisting different states.

Now for your question. Can you go back to duality? Yes a change in states is inevitable. But trying to go back from or hold onto the absolute will only create suffering.

Once true non duality is, and the one holding onto states has dissolved completely then the desire and ability to hold onto states is gone.

[Joseph Maynor]

9 hours ago, eputkonen said:

Duality is an illusion...it is just a thought.  What you experience now is nonduality.
 

After "achieving nonduality" - which I guess would be equivalent to seeing through the illusion of duality - would not mean the world looks any different (by the eye).  It is just understood differently...what is lacking is the belief that anything is separate.

Once the illusion of duality is seen through, it is never believed again.  So there is no going back or losing it.

I agree with this sort of.  Once someone reveals the secret to a magic trick to you, the next time you see that same magic trick performed — what are you gonna be focused on?  

Edited September 19, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Hellspeed]

Nonduality is the unlocking the capacity of the body/mind beyond the only 2 chakras that the majority of people use. 

After one is aware of the energetic system in the body, synchronizes it, then nonduality arises. 

After unlocking the body and focussing only on the upper side, language, light, good, right etc. Give sufficient time and one gets stuck again in duality. 

The same language we use every day to communicate is built in such a manner to make one stay only in duality if one follows the meanings of the dictionary and mainstream schools. 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Hellspeed

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

There are different views. Some teachers tell you that once you get it, you get it. Some others like Leo say that you can have glimpses of it, lose it and get it back again. The best way to confirm is to experience it yourself. Then you can come back to the forum and tell us.

[Nahm]

@Mezanti

Just need to get from the thinking ( “knowing” and therefore forgetting) to Being (no thinking, so no “forgetting” = Knowing)

No self, “no me” realization is still dual, and not Self realization. No self can be communicated to an a-priori ‘other’ by referring to all that is (neti neti), through the a priori “ I “ , referencing everything or anything, and then stating I am not that / I am not that, creating the duality of Self and not that... “no me” (all that is self too, in appearance).  Still, Self, is Being, no self experience. When nonduality is a state, equated with a state through contrast with other “more normal states” the Self is what is nondual, not the expereince, nor the state, nor the perception, nor the experience of the state - the Self is all of those, because it’s none of those.

So the Self is prior to the thought or perspective, even if the perspective is nonduality, hence the confusion in No self / Self. In silent samadhi, Self. The noteworthy factor is before / after the absolute madness of identity / no identity, vs no before & after, and therefore, no “states”. Or rather, just skip all that, and Be, yourself. Look at what is denied specifically when implying no self, or ask, which “part of self” am I seeing as “not self”? It’s body related: food, self reliance, addiction, abuse, neglect, intimidation, self esteem, and this is precisely why it is missed with thinking, leaving realization at the thinking level. 

No self is still “outward”, fragmentation, but unknown. I’d loosy say no self is maximum conceptual, but not yet actual realization. 

 

If that is word salad, good, it should be really, do this... 

Sit down and take deep slow breaths, let every muscle go, sink into relaxation.

Hold the thought, of the closest person to you dying, today,  unexpectedly.

Now, In thought ask the question, “do people die”?

Intensify this thought by repeating it over and over, imagine it is your reality, today, right now - and you have no choice but to accept it and deal, until you know the truth of this matter.

Now, free the question, by relaxing entirely, and allow the question to float up & out through the head, let that thought go, free forever. Gone.

But don’t allow awareness to go up, into the thinking. Let the question float up & out....

But send awareness  down, into the body, then deeper into the inner body.

Now FEEL the answer / sensation, deeply feel it. No fear, accept it deeply, directly. 

Take note of that sensation.

 

Now hold the thought / question of the next person closest to you dying today, unexpectedly. 

Focus on the thinking / question ‘in the head’. 

Now let the thought / question float out through the head, - but direct awareness downward, into the body, then into the inner body.

Feel the sensation fully.

Now do this again with the next closest person to you.

Feel the inner, inner, sensation deeply.

Again, Take note of that sensation deep inside of the body.

 

 

 

Now think about the person closest to you again, and realize they are not dying today. Intensely focus on how much love you have for them, and focus on the question “what am I”, do not go “up” from the eyes into thinking, focus on the question in thought, then release it, let that thought float up and out of the head, go “down” from the eyes, direct awareness downward, into the inner body, be attentive to the physical sensation of the BOND of love, the actuality of the inner body sensation.

Now think of the next closest person to you, and think about how they are not dying today, think about how much love you have for them, and think the question “what am I”, focus intensely on that question in thought, then release that thought, allow it to float up and out, and direct awareness downward into the body, then into the inner body.

Take note of that inner sensation.

Recall the inner sensation of the death contemplation.

See the similarity in the inner body sensation.

They are THE SAME.

The appearing difference, is only ‘there’, in thought, not in sensation.

In the sensation there is no difference between what you are, death, and love.

 

 

This is a peek into direct experience of the difference between no-self (conceptual w or w/o sensation realization), and Self / Being (no longer conceptual, only sensation/actuality - Being - without fragmentation, or unaccepted facets of self, other, and or circumstances - all Self)

Thought no longer “tricks” Being,

it is laughable, I hope you experience the shocking humor that arises. 

It is funny, how you convinced yourself of death, is it not? 

You never “went” anywhere, or “became” anything.

You been right here the whole time.

.

 

 

[Flow With Life]

On 9/19/2018 at 2:10 AM, WelcometoReality said:

@Mezanti I'm going to use different words to describe this. What you call non duality I call the absolute. And to experience the absolute is blissful. And when you first experience that state you never want it to end, so when it does you feel bad and want to go back into that state.

When the absolute state return you feel wonderful again. For each iteration of this the one that holds on to different states dissolves until there is no one there to hold on. And then there is the true non dual state. No holding on or resisting different states.

Now for your question. Can you go back to duality? Yes a change in states is inevitable. But trying to go back from or hold onto the absolute will only create suffering.

Once true non duality is, and the one holding onto states has dissolved completely then the desire and ability to hold onto states is gone.

Ah... this guy gets it. It's not about one state versus another, but the clinging to states is what must dissolve. I would say there isn't a "one holding onto states" though. There is just a holding on, without a "one"; verb, instead of noun.

[WelcometoReality]

11 hours ago, Flow With Life said:

Ah... this guy gets it. It's not about one state versus another, but the clinging to states is what must dissolve. I would say there isn't a "one holding onto states" though. There is just a holding on, without a "one"; verb, instead of noun.

Yes I agree. The "one" does not exist. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Leo Gura]

On 9/18/2018 at 7:49 PM, Baotrader said:

Osho once said it's hard for enlightened pp to do anything. After enlightenment his body became very weak.

This is just factually false. There are thousands of healthy and physically strong enlightened people all over the world right now.

Osho has some unique condition.

[egoless]

The so called Enlightenment is no more than conditioning of your bran in a way that your perception of reality changes permanently. This is precisely why “reaching” Enlightenment takes so long. You hypnotize yourself into this state. You completely program your subconscious to accept the new way of perceiving reality. All this has nothing to do with god and the real source of reality which is transcendental and you will never know it without faith. Enlightenment is self deception. But it becomes so true for a person that it seems to him like an absolute Truth. But it is not in your conscious mind. It becomes your subconscious truth. That is why they say that thinking Enlightenment is not it.

To answer your question, I believe, yes it is possible to reprogram yourself back into dual perception of reality. However it will take very long to deprogram yourself back into normal perception. It took me long way.

Edited September 22, 2018 by egoless