Truth vs. Ego

[Finland3286]

I have been looking into enlightenment and Non-Duality lately and it seems quite appealing and intriguing. I have been questioning many things lately and i'm not really sure if I know anything besides that all experience happens within oneself. Although, I find these things intriguing it makes me wonder if i'm just feeding what you would call your ego with these nice ideas. But maybe the point of these nice ideas is to first get into the steps to become enlightened? 

The problem is that I look at what people say about this topic and how it can't be communicated and I push it away because I don't want to spend this mass amount of time with these practices and have nothing happen. I guess there is this fear holding me back you may say but I would call it rationality. Because everything I have known, or thought I have known in life has been through the means of rationality as far as I can tell.  

Although, I have heard Leo say that this rationality and logic and even science is rooted in assumptions about reality itself. At this point I don't understand why this is the case, I mean to me it seems like the best way to figure things out because you can make sense out of things. But this may very well just be an assumption and I just can't really get it into my mind that this is an assumption. Right now as I typed how my means of figuring things out through rationality and science and logic work doesn't even seem like a remotely good answer, why these are good ways to figure things out, It's just that these things work and have worked for me. I watch Leo's videos and I put him on this pedestal because many things he says make sense to me and he seems like one of the smartest people I have ever seen. Then I look at this enlightenment and Non-Duality he goes into in his videos and I don't get how he made this jump so to speak. I don't feel willing to dismiss this whole idea because I look up to Leo and I want to be like him in a way.

Also with me questioning many things I wonder how we can actually experience truth itself (whatever that may be) because as humans we don't see things as they really are. For example if you look at a tree and see it has a brown tree trunk and an animal looks at that tree and maybe they see another color who is right? Is neither right? Are these colors just a projection of the mind? Why should I go down this enlightenment path so to speak if I don't know if it's a real thing? 

I'm Okay with not knowing things and maybe there are things I can never know the answer to and if that's the case then that's just the truth and I think i'm okay with that, I just like to ask questions. 

[Finland3286]

Also this really makes we wonder if what we experience is what we think it is or if what we experience is even true.

[Leo Gura]

It's very simple. How do you know science and rationality are the best way to understand reality? To make such a claim is already to be deeply unscientific and irrational because for you to know that science explains all of reality you would have to run a scientific test on this claim. And the only way to run that test is to spend a billion years investigating every corner of the universe until you finally demonstrate that every phenomena possible within reality can be understood by science. It is by no means a given that this test will come out true. In fact, it's much more likely that you will discover tons of phenomena which cannot be understood by existing scientific method at all. You would be a naive fool to assume that science and rationality can grasp every facet of reality. This is a highly unscientific position.

How do you know science and rationality are not hallucinations?

How do you know science and rationality can be trusted?

How do you know science and rationality cover all possible phenomena?

How do you know science and rationality are not tools of the ego-mind?

How can you trust rationality when rationality has been used by people to delude themselves for thousands of years?

How can you trust science when the history of science is filled with intelligent scientists making all sorts of absurd errors in understanding reality, only to have those errors exposed hundreds of years later, after they are dead?

Who says reality is scientific and rational? Why should it be?

What if science and rationality are just subjective, human-centric modes of perceiving reality?

Notice, a person inside a Matrix can do science and rationality for 50 years and still have no idea he is inside a Matrix because science and rationality are illusions within the realm of the Matrix and cannot go outside it.

1 hour ago, Finland3286 said:

because as humans we don't see things as they really are. For example if you look at a tree and see it has a brown tree trunk and an animal looks at that tree and maybe they see another color who is right?

That is a belief. What if the tree is precisely Absolute Truth?

Maybe you are not really a human but you merely believe you are.

Has science or rationality ever demonstrated that you are a human? NO!

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Why should I go down this enlightenment path so to speak if I don't know if it's a real thing?

You don't know anything. The problem is that you are assuming you know a lot of stuff that you do not actually know.

All that enlightenment is, is total skepticism about EVERYTHING. You become so skeptical that you stop believing you exist.

The Truth is what remains after all your beliefs have been questioned to death, especially your beliefs about physical reality and your personal story of being a human being who was born on this planet called Earth. This is a story you invented.

Don't believe me. Just question yourself to death.

The fundamental problem here is that you believe an objective physical reality exists. This turns out to be false. All that exists are your projections and beliefs about it. Question your beliefs and physical reality will disappear as though it never existed.

You are inside of a hallucination. I am not kidding. WAKE UP!!! WAKE UP!!! WAKE UP!!!

Science and rationality are hallucinations so you cannot rely on them to escape the Matrix.

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I'm Okay with not knowing things and maybe there are things I can never know the answer to and if that's the case then that's just the truth and I think i'm okay with that,

No, the problem is that you already think you know how reality is.

You do not know if truth is knowable or not. Which means, it could be knowable. But you are assuming it can't. Which is a groundless and unscientific assumption.

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I just like to ask questions.

No, you don't! You're full of shit.

You have not seriously asked any deep questions about existence. You have not even bothered to question science and rationality, nor your own being.

Your own mind has you thoroughly deceived. You do not yet even have an inkling how self-deceived you are.

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Why should I go down this enlightenment path so to speak if I don't know if it's a real thing?

Nothing is real. That is enlightenment.

You are confusing enlightenment for some kind of positive belief system. It is the polar opposite of that. Enlightenment is nothing. With enlightenment, all knowledge of reality is erased. It's like wiping a hard drive and not writing anything back on it. You are left totally blank. This blank is so blank that not only is your mind wiped out, all of physical reality is wiped out. Everything that exists ceases to exist. Nothing remains at all! No body, no brain, no Earth, no universe, no science, no rationality. Just pure blank. At this point you are physically dead. Nothing remains of you. And that is the Truth.

You do not really want enlightenment. It is the last in the world your mind wants. You'd have to be suicidal to want it.

People just do not appreciate how radical enlightenment is. You think I'm exaggerating. But I'm not.

[DrewNows]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

All that enlightenment is, is total skepticism about EVERYTHING. You become so skeptical that you stop being believing you exist.

well said! Questioning life to the inner core of being, to the end of space and time, to infinity and beyond  

[Nahm]

@Finland3286

There are many paradigms and paradoxes between where you are and where you’re headed, and a lot to let go of. Quantum mechanics, just via Youtube, is a great medium to see how rationality / science is an outcome of deeper levels - mystical and unexplainable. Like how you can effortlessly move your finger, but you can’t explain how. There is no supplement for going through the paradigms and paradoxes. You’ve been seeing this one side of every coin. You’ll see the other side. Your mind will try to resolve these sides. Eventually it will surrender / collapse, and resolve, outside / or transcendent to & of rationality. Be careful pedastooling anyone. The gurus and sages are within you, not separate. It takes you farther from the truth, not closer. I know that is not easy. Leo is so intelligent, you can only think you’ve grasped how intelligent he is. Makes me wanna barf right now just considering it.  @Leo Gura ??❤️❤️❤️

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[Laymen]

I've tasted some degree of being today. It's beyond words. It's different than what you considered it to be. It's just like you are 100% certain about something just to be surprised after. My whole perspective on things has changed. It's like the collapse of SENSE OF SELF. Trust me, it's what you really want guys. I've been valuing money and material possessions for so long, indulged myself into sex for so long just to realize this thing called enlightenment is what I truly want

[Nahm]

@Laymen Can I get a hell yeah!! That’s awesome man! 

[ThomasT]

9 hours ago, Mikael89 said:

But consciousness (the Self/Absolute/God etc.) will remain, right?

Consciousness/absolute/Truth IS the harddrive! Phenomena and belief can only happen "inside" the harddrive. When you remove beliefs, see beyond phenomena and stop identifying with certain parts of whats on the harddrive, you realize that you are it!

Or not, i don't know

[Forestluv]

@Finland3286 To me, it seems like you've set up a scenario in which you need to choose rationality / science or enlightenment / non-duality. 

I'm a scientist and one of my biggest blocks was the belief that I would have to discard / reject rationality and science. Nothing could be further from the truth for me. Rationality and science is *within* something bigger. You don't lose rationality and science. You expand. Science is so freaking amazing. I love it. Have you studied any Quantum Mechanics? Some of that stuff is irrational. It sounds like "woo woo" new agey crap. Yet, it has the highest predictive power in science and winning some of the highest prizes in science (including a Nobel Prize). Much of what appears irrational and magical today will become garden variety rational in the future. Science and rationality can be an effective tools. The problem I had was that I contracted myself to rationality and science. 

This process isn't just about meditating and contemplating hours and hours. For me, there is also an intellectual component. For example, a relative mode of thinking is at a higher level than rational thinking which is at a higher level than either / or thinking. I've found conceptual understanding and direct experience go hand-in-hand.

To me, it sounds like you haven't had any significant direct experience awakenings. The type that shakes your whole world and makes you question the nature of reality from deep within. That's what got me hooked. I had been centered in rational / logical thinking for decades. Spirituality was a nice little side hobby that helped me relieve stress, gain some minor insights. It also provided a nice community to chat about spiritual concepts. Then, after my first ego-death experience, I was like "Holy fuck!! What just happened??!!". It was so beyond anything I had experienced or could have imagined. Try psychedelics about five times or so to get a taste of it. 

If you limit yourself to what you can make sense of, you will not come to know that which makes no sense.

 

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

@Serotoninluv is correct. Science still remains, but it is recontextualized. Since it works with relative concepts, it can never express the Truth. Spirituality TRANSCENDS AND INCLUDES science and rationality. Spirituality realizes that some things are outside rationality and logic, and accepts that there is a possibility of knowing something beyond perception and thought. 

The next best step would be to realize that you really don't know who you are, what reality is, and why it is hear. You can say that reality is made out of matter, mind, energy or that it is a virtual simulation - but if you are honest you might come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter what you think. You really don't know what anything is.

Now, perhaps you can. And the answer is beyond thought.

“The instant you speak about a thing, you miss the mark.”

[Finland3286]

"It's very simple. How do you know science and rationality are the best way to understand reality? To make such a claim is already to be deeply unscientific and irrational because for you to know that science explains all of reality you would have to run a scientific test on this claim. And the only way to run that test is to spend a billion years investigating every corner of the universe until you finally demonstrate that every phenomena possible within reality can be understood by science. It is by no means a given that this test will come out true. In fact, it's much more likely that you will discover tons of phenomena which cannot be understood by existing scientific method at all. You would be a naive fool to assume that science and rationality can grasp every facet of reality. This is a highly unscientific position".

I understand what Leo is saying here about me just making all these assumptions about reality and science as well as rationality. I think the problem is that I was thinking that it's all garbage and must be thrown out completely if I was to believe in enlightenment. Although, that whole idea of believing in enlightenment is apparently untrue because it has to do with complete skepticism according to Leo. As of right now I think that I really have to look into self inquiry and some self deception videos Leo has. Because I kind of see how my reasoning is based off of assumptions and these assumptions work to an extent but that's not really truth. I see what Leo is saying (or at least I think I do ) but I think I really have to ask more questions to really find out about my ideas I have and see if they are actually rooted in something. Even as I type this I don't really want to to ask questions and challenge myself, It makes me feel sad in a way.

Also thank you to everyone who posted on this thread  It is greatly appreciated!

[Leo Gura]

@Finland3286 Another thing you can do is research. Read 10 diverse books on nonduality and that will clear a lot of stuff up for you. You don't have to reinvent the wheel here. Mankind has understood nonduality for 5000 years at least. It's all been written down for those who care to read.

It's sort of like you're struggling your way through mathematics when all you gotta do is pick up a math textbook.

Nonduality is actually older and more solid than mathematics. They just don't teach it in school because it destroys all reality and society.

[Finland3286]

@Leo Gura Thank you. It boggles my mind how people could have understood Non-Duality 5000 years ago. Makes me laugh at my ignorance if this whole thing is whatever it is . 

Also, I will be sure to read up on the topic as well.

[Joseph Maynor]

1 hour ago, Finland3286 said:

@Leo Gura Thank you. It boggles my mind how people could have understood Non-Duality 5000 years ago. Makes me laugh at my ignorance if this whole thing is whatever it is . 

Also, I will be sure to read up on the topic as well.

The best thing you can do for Enlightenment Work is self-observation.  That's why the ancients could be Enlightened too.  Enlightenment Work is not rocket science.  It's quite the opposite actually.  It's boring, mundane, keen-mindfulness work that the Ego doesn't want to do.  And so people get into all kinds of distractions with Enlightenment Work.  If you're not focusing inward, you're not doing Enlightenment Work.  You wanna be questioning all your beliefs about reality and looking at reality as it is not as the Mind takes it to be.  Enlightenment is for people who love Truth so much that they'll follow it off a cliff literally.  That's what Enlightenment is.  Enlightenment is not about science, it's about reality.  And the ancients could see reality just as well as we can.  You might say that Enlightenment is seeing through more B.S. than most people -- but on the deepest level.  If you already have a good B.S. detector, you're gonna have an advantage in Enlightenment Work, because you're gonna need it -- and then some!

Edited September 13, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Finland3286]

@Joseph Maynor It just makes me wonder why they would self introspect in the first place. I would assume 5,000 years ago there would usually be a lot more to worry about than self introspection and Non-Duality. Also I don't really know of anyone who just sort of decided one day to self introspect and pick apart their assumptions and beliefs. Seems like they would need a push in that direction and also information was probably harder to get a hold of 5,000 years ago.

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Finland3286 said:

@Joseph Maynor It just makes me wonder why they would self introspect in the first place. I would assume 5,000 years ago there would usually be a lot more to worry about than self introspection and Non-Duality. Also I don't really know of anyone who just sort of decided one day to self introspect and pick apart their assumptions and beliefs. Seems like they would need a push in that direction and also information was probably harder to get a hold of 5,000 years ago.

The Tao Te Ching is the best work written on Enlightenment in my opinion.  That was written God knows when in ancient China.

[Finland3286]

@Serotoninluv Thank you for your response. Also, no I have not looked into and don't really know anything about quantum mechanics. The only thing about quantum mechanics I heard about was from Michio Kaku talk about Schrodinger's box and about really small particles or something coming into existence spontaneously and then disappearing (Hopefully I didn't butcher quantum mechanics with what I just said there!). Maybe quantum mechanics is something I should look into in the future.

[Rilles]

6 hours ago, Finland3286 said:

@Joseph Maynor It just makes me wonder why they would self introspect in the first place. I would assume 5,000 years ago there would usually be a lot more to worry about than self introspection and Non-Duality. Also I don't really know of anyone who just sort of decided one day to self introspect and pick apart their assumptions and beliefs. Seems like they would need a push in that direction and also information was probably harder to get a hold of 5,000 years ago.

Theres alot of time for introspection when plowing a field or milking a cow, there’s no time when you’re stuck in a corporate boardroom. ? 

[Finland3286]

I watched Leo's video about the Neti Neti method to become enlightened. Leo says that you are a constant but how does this work? Isn't me thinking that I must be or am a constant just another assumption? How can I make progress by using the Neti Neti method when I think I am a constant but  when I think about it it's just an assumption?

[Rilles]

@Finland3286 Awareness of yourself is constant, but “you” are not. Find that awareness, Rupert Spira is very good at explaining this stuff, check out his talks on YouTube.