Please Convince Me

[DustyWhy]

I found the youtube channel a few months ago and watched a few videos, I subscribed but didnt watch anything more. Then some days ago saw the newest video "What Is Spirituality? - A No-Bullshit Intro To Spirituality", that sounded pefect for me so I promised myself I would watch it all eventhough it was so long. Im glad I did, I feel wiser now, even if its just a little compared to the infinite Truth haha.

But as I was watching it a stress grew bigger and bigger in me. I feel so overwhelmed by it all and I feel this big need to talk directly about it with someone. And then I got sad because I really want to take in all the information in the video, and for some reason I feel like I cant do that if I cant talk with someone. So you can imagine how happy I got when Leo mentioned this forum. I can say this, if I get answers to my questions and thoughts on here, I promise I will give spirituality a shot I just need to be guided in the beggining.

I guess some background information on me can be good. Im 20 and Ive always been more of a science/sceptic/rational guy, but Ive always had a latent interest in spirituality. Ive always thought spirituality seemed to have some wise insights, altough I was also very critical against it because it didnt make sense to me. It still doesnt haha. I do feel like I can say that Im more spiritually developed than most people though, and I have kiiiiiind of had one or two mystical experiences. When I did the quiz at the end of the video I got tens on all of them except two. I also think I might be an empath...

I have always been really passionate about finding truth. I feel its my mission to find it, although I always thought science/rationality would be my method to find it, Im still not sure if I will find it with spirituality. I can confidently say that I WILL find it, I cant be happy in life otherwise, Ive known that a long time. But right now Im really scared, and I really dont like the idea of spending so much time meditating and reading all the books like Leo says. I will do it if thats really necessary, but Im really scared and I really dont like it

I feel like my inner sceptic must "lose" completely if Im gonna be able to do this. Leo did almost all the work, but theres still one piece of sceptic thats hanging on. Theres one question left before it loses completely, and I really hope it loses because I really want to start this spiritual journey of mine, but I wont be able to do it if this scepetic is still hanging on.

As Ive understood it from the video the next step for me is to read books and wait for my first mystical experience. So the question I have is basically, how do I know that when I read the books they arent tricking me? How do I know that this mystical experience I will have is not just my brain playing a trick on me? Keep in mind this is my sceptic side asking this question. I know the arguements Leo said, that all there is, is the mind. But Im sadly still not able to trust that, Im still too scared of tricking myself into a false woo woo experience.

Im gonna be honest and say that you probably wont convince me with one answer, it will probably take some back and forth discussion. But I promise that I will try my very best to let my self be convinced, and I hope you will convince me And I hope Ive found the right place for that. If I am convinced I can see myself becoming active on this forum too. I hope I wont discourage anyone from answering with such a long first post like this haha. Thanks in advance!

[Leo Gura]

@DustyWhy How do you know you aren't tricking yourself right now?

How do you know science isn't a hallucination?

How do you know you were born?

Skepticism cuts both ways buddy.

[DustyWhy]

@Leo GuraGood questions! Of course I cant answer. But as you understand, from my perspective it looks like everything posses the same risk of not being real. So I guess my question is how I should pick one over the other. You say spirituality is real, scientists say science is real, and I cant tell which one I should trust. Really, I just dont know what to do

[Leo Gura]

@DustyWhy You can't trust anything.

You must do work to discover what is true.

You cannot sit back on your ass and expect truth to be delivered to you by someone. That is not how truth works.

If you really cared about truth, you would be willing to invest 20 years searching for it. That's roughly the kind of dedication this work requires. Dabblers will not cut it.

And there is no guarantee you will ever find it, or that it's even possible for a human to find. That's your predicament from your POV.

From my POV, I've found the Absolute Truth and I understand why existence exists. It's a pretty cool thing. Whether you trust me or not is irrelevant. Trusting me will not help you one bit.

If you don't know what to do, you're stuck in the Matrix. No one can free you but you. If you do not desire to be free, then stay a slave. The point of your life is to awaken, but you are free to piss your life away and stay a slave. Up to you.

[Joseph Maynor]

I’m 20 years older than you are.  Keep coming on the Forum.  It’s a long road.  But you can learn on here.  The bottom line is you’re always learning your whole life.  Being on the Forum can accelerate your growth though because you’re gonna see things that you’ll never see as quickly on your own.  This is the place to hang out if you’re someone who has a passion to learn and a passion to self-observe.  There are people on here that can save you time!  If I came on here when I was 20 how great that would’ve been!  There are people on here at all levels of growth from the very beginner to the insanely advanced.  Not to sound too dorky, but what you wanna do is become part of the conversation and tap into learning from everyone on here.  That's what I did basically.  And now I'm one of the insanely advanced people on here.  But I've been working on Personal Development since I was 20 years old -- so I've been doing self-improvement work for 20 years now.  I've been doing Personal Development work since I was 10 but I don't wanna sound cocky.  I had a childhood that required me attach to self-improvement very early for a few different reasons.  By problem was I had to be my own teacher pretty much for a lot of that time.  But I worked hard on my own, majored in Philosophy, etc.  And the few teachers that I've learned from I milked dry.  You gotta be a tenacious motherf*cker to become great at Personal Development.  There's gotta be some suffering in your life to drive you.  Think about it, if your life is fine, what use is Personal Development to you?  So, I think people who become masters at Personal Development had some kind of suffering in their life's background driving them forward with this work.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Nahm]

@DustyWhy

Need for someone to convince you is lack of motivation on your own part. You’re afraid of yourself, what you can do, what you can see, what you really are. I don’t blame you at all. You’re terrifyingly powerful. You can real-Ize that. You can couch-call and speculate, but, you know, deep down, you know, you can never be beat.

One day you will find yourself in the sanctuary of death, and if you like, you can take just one breath of bliss, just enough to expel, “I can never be beat”, and you can arise again to say “I can never be beat”. It’s now brutha. You’ve been dyin since you were born. You can. 

[fabriciom]

Lol the lazymans way into enlighment.

The problem is that all this process is that. Finding the truth. So if you don't even want to try you have already ended without even starting.

[Mu_]

On 9/11/2018 at 2:25 AM, DustyWhy said:

I found the youtube channel a few months ago and watched a few videos, I subscribed but didnt watch anything more. Then some days ago saw the newest video "What Is Spirituality? - A No-Bullshit Intro To Spirituality", that sounded pefect for me so I promised myself I would watch it all eventhough it was so long. Im glad I did, I feel wiser now, even if its just a little compared to the infinite Truth haha.

But as I was watching it a stress grew bigger and bigger in me. I feel so overwhelmed by it all and I feel this big need to talk directly about it with someone. And then I got sad because I really want to take in all the information in the video, and for some reason I feel like I cant do that if I cant talk with someone. So you can imagine how happy I got when Leo mentioned this forum. I can say this, if I get answers to my questions and thoughts on here, I promise I will give spirituality a shot I just need to be guided in the beggining.

I guess some background information on me can be good. Im 20 and Ive always been more of a science/sceptic/rational guy, but Ive always had a latent interest in spirituality. Ive always thought spirituality seemed to have some wise insights, altough I was also very critical against it because it didnt make sense to me. It still doesnt haha. I do feel like I can say that Im more spiritually developed than most people though, and I have kiiiiiind of had one or two mystical experiences. When I did the quiz at the end of the video I got tens on all of them except two. I also think I might be an empath...

I have always been really passionate about finding truth. I feel its my mission to find it, although I always thought science/rationality would be my method to find it, Im still not sure if I will find it with spirituality. I can confidently say that I WILL find it, I cant be happy in life otherwise, Ive known that a long time. But right now Im really scared, and I really dont like the idea of spending so much time meditating and reading all the books like Leo says. I will do it if thats really necessary, but Im really scared and I really dont like it

I feel like my inner sceptic must "lose" completely if Im gonna be able to do this. Leo did almost all the work, but theres still one piece of sceptic thats hanging on. Theres one question left before it loses completely, and I really hope it loses because I really want to start this spiritual journey of mine, but I wont be able to do it if this scepetic is still hanging on.

As Ive understood it from the video the next step for me is to read books and wait for my first mystical experience. So the question I have is basically, how do I know that when I read the books they arent tricking me? How do I know that this mystical experience I will have is not just my brain playing a trick on me? Keep in mind this is my sceptic side asking this question. I know the arguements Leo said, that all there is, is the mind. But Im sadly still not able to trust that, Im still too scared of tricking myself into a false woo woo experience.

Im gonna be honest and say that you probably wont convince me with one answer, it will probably take some back and forth discussion. But I promise that I will try my very best to let my self be convinced, and I hope you will convince me And I hope Ive found the right place for that. If I am convinced I can see myself becoming active on this forum too. I hope I wont discourage anyone from answering with such a long first post like this haha. Thanks in advance!

What exactly do you want to hear to be convinced?

Many enlightened teachers have said that the majority of people come to these questions your wanting to know about, after a life lacking of satisfaction.  Life has shown these people through the materialist mindset and way of living that something is missing, they've earned all the money they can, have a house, had all the sex they can, had kids, followed everything they have been taught will bring them happiness meaning and contentment and still something is missing, life is seen as a forced activity that they begrudgingly follow and live within.  Because they've experienced it all or gone through a lot of suffering, they are willing to explore something new.

You however are 20, with little life experience, the world is ahead of you and open, you probably haven't suffered much, you felt something in Leo's video that made you curious.  This path is not a pleasurable path in its entirety, you will most likely have to look into things that question you to the core.

I was one of the biggest skeptics around and still have a skeptics mind, however if you really want to look at this whole thing like a scientist dont you need to approach things with an open mind and work with the tools laid out to see what they produce? Meditation, yoga, spiritual knowledge/books, you gotta use yourself as the experiment.  The idea that your mind will trick you into believing woo woo stuff goes both ways no?  Why do you believe your mind hasn't already tricked you, is everything you see as you see it or is there more to the picture.  Do you even know yourself as well as you think you do? 

[DustyWhy]

Im gonna answer you all at the same time because it seems to me you are all making the same points.

First off all, youre assuming a whole lot of stuff about me, please stop that. No one of you know me, you dont what what Ive been through in life, you dont know how if I have suffered.

Secondly, why do you think Im lazy? Didnt I make it very clear in my first post that I will do whatever it takes to find the truth? What have I said that makes it sound like Im gonna sit on my ass and expect it delivered to me? I was very clear with that I will put in the time and the effort if thats whats it takes.

Thirdly, theres something I really dont understand. From your videos Leo, it seems like you want to spread the word and spread a positive message. Thats not at all the vibe Im getting in here. I dont know, maybe Im overreacting and take things too personal, but tbh you guys really dont feel like yuo want to be helpful and welcoming. Ive had a very bad impression of most of you in this thread. I feel looked down up on just because Im a beginner. Correct me if it isnt like that, but if it is like that, do you really think thats gonna make newbies like me want to stay here? If your goal really is to spread the message and to help people, dont you think what youre doing is counter intuative? It almost seems like youre trying to scare me away

I get Im risking getting banned or something from this forum when Im saying all this stuff. I hope you wont do that, Im not aiming this to any of you personally. Im not after drama, Im just being honest because I think honesty is really really really important. As Ive said before, I want to learn from you guys, its just youre making it really hard for me. Im not being lazy, I just dont know what to do. I hope you will see what Im trying to say in this message.

Gonna add some hearts becuase feel this chat could use some positivity, and I want to show that Im real about this. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

Edited September 12, 2018 by DustyWhy

[Leo Gura]

@DustyWhy We are just trying to drop some bitter truth on you.

In this work, it's good to have your illusions dispelled quickly, otherwise the ego chases rainbows and butterflies into fantasy land.

The reason you got this response is because your post is titled and takes the attitude of "Convince me of the truth". Which is not at all the right attitude for seeking truth. Asking to be convinced of the truth is one of the most disrespectful things you can ask of a truth-realized person. It would be like telling a math teacher: "Convince me that 1 + 1 = 2. How do I know you're not tricking me?"

The answer to your question is simply this: You don't know what is true. You don't know who to trust. You don't know what to do. That is a good place to be. You have to get used to not knowing things in this work.

Only after you realize that anything or anyone could be tricking you, you start to investigate truth seriously for yourself without believing anyone.

Have you seen my Practical Guide to Enlightenment?

This is the process by which you discover the truth without having to trust anyone or anything:

Do not even trust me.

Do the inquiry and see what it yields.

[DustyWhy]

@Leo Gura Ok I do see that my title was really bad, sorry about that. I guess it makes it a little understandable why you reacted like you did, but still I think you were way to harsh because the contents of my post is nothing like that misleading title.

My biggest mistake in life was to trust people, so I sure know I shouldnt trust anything. Im not exagerating, it really was the biggest mistake in my life, brought me alot of suffering.

I dont know how you, who have discovered the Truth, can trust the Truth is true. But I guess its just a dead end asking you about that haha.

Thanks I havnt read it! Ill read it tomorrow.

[Wisebaxter]

@DustyWhy When you discover the truth it goes beyond trust. If you have to trust in something then you really haven't discovered anything. Most of us were brought up believing that all you can hope for is trust and faith when it comes to any kind of spiritual pursuits, but there are things you can actually discover for yourself within the domain of metaphysics, things you can actually experience. Sure faith can be helpful to keep you going until you dig into some gold. 

If it's useful at all the book that got me my first actual experience of what actualized.org is about (although it goes a lot deeper) was the Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, so that might be a good place to start to build up some inspiration and get a taste of truth rather than chasing it's tail. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Wisebaxter

[Leo Gura]

53 minutes ago, DustyWhy said:

My biggest mistake in life was to trust people, so I sure know I shouldnt trust anything. Im not exagerating, it really was the biggest mistake in my life, brought me alot of suffering.

Right. So the thing for you to realize about that is: that's a fear-based concern. Fear is an emotion which distorts an objective unbiased inquiry into truth.

Can you see that? You are afraid of seeking the truth because you're afraid you might fall into delusion.

But, eventually you will realize that itself is a delusion! Because all fear is a delusion of the ego-mind. Why? Because you are afraid of death? But death itself the Truth! So all fear is the avoidance of Truth.

Quote

I dont know how you, who have discovered the Truth, can trust the Truth is true. But I guess its just a dead end asking you about that haha.

There is no how. Absolute Truth is DIRECT!

This does not make sense to you because you believe you are a human being having perceptions of a physical external reality. This turns out to be a false belief. The Absolute Truth is accessible to you at every second of your life. In fact, there is nothing but Absolute Truth.

Can you see how your belief that "the truth cannot be accessed directly" is just an unfounded unscientific belief? You in fact have no proof that truth cannot be accessed directly because one cannot prove a negative. And if you're honest you'll admit that you've never even tried.

[Joseph Maynor]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@DustyWhy We are just trying to drop some bitter truth on you.

In this work, it's good to have your illusions dispelled quickly, otherwise the ego chases rainbows and butterflies into fantasy land.

The reason you got this response is because your post is titled and takes the attitude of "Convince me of the truth". Which is not at all the right attitude for seeking truth. Asking to be convinced of the truth is one of the most disrespectful things you can ask of a truth-realized person. It would be like telling a math teacher: "Convince me that 1 + 1 = 2. How do I know you're not tricking me?"

The answer to your question is simply this: You don't know what is true. You don't know who to trust. You don't know what to do. That is a good place to be. You have to get used to not knowing things in this work.

Only after you realize that anything or anyone could be tricking you, you start to investigate truth seriously for yourself without believing anyone.

Have you seen my Practical Guide to Enlightenment?

This is the process by which you discover the truth without having to trust anyone or anything:

Do not even trust me.

Do the inquiry and see what it yields.

Sort of.  Remember the person is 20 years old though.  I found most of the posts a little too blunt.  It’s good to be encouraging too.  I always think back to what I wanted to hear at 20.  Remember, 20 is quite young.  Just my take.  When you’re 20 you need encouragement from people.  When you’re 30 you maybe should be given a little tough medicine because you should know better by then.  When you’re 40 you can actually appreciate bluntness from people.  I did get a sense of lack of compassion in the tone of some of the posts here.  That’s an issue for us not for the OP.  If the 20 year old you (recall back) were coming on here asking for help, what would you wanna hear?  

Edited September 13, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[RichardY]

A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with a side of lima beans and a nice Cianti.
 

 

[Forestluv]

@DustyWhy You don't need to reject rationality and science. Rationality and science are *within* something much more expansive. Rationality and science are wonderful tools. Yet, why limit yourself to rational thought? It is such a tiny part of the bigger picture.

Going beyond rational thought is sooo liberating. Life becomes so much more beautiful. And you still get to use rational thought. And you still get to be amazed by science.

[SgtPepper]

A mystical experience is more convincing then words.

I would try to just keep an open-mind, start slowly exploring spirituality without any biases and explore various materials such as:

1. Watching videos of gurus like Sadhguru and Osho (there's a lot more).

2. Reading some books, books by Alan Watts or Eckhart Tolle are some examples.

3. Start a meditation habit so that you can start to recognize your own experience in a more conscious way. 

4. Try a psychedelic (responsibly).- this is what led me to pursue spirituality and get a meditation habit.

5. Look up Kriya Yoga.

Theres a lot of ways to start building yourself. Start slow so you don't feel overwhelmed, but at some point its gonna need to get serious if you want to realize the truth. That is why people here are being serious here and their definitely is a lot of seriousness around here. Spirituality is a serious pursuit. Watching Leo's videos is also very helpful and was pretty much how I got started being serious about spirituality. However, I was always curious about nature, God, religion, and spirituality when I was a child; however because I lacked deep understanding I quickly became an atheist. Experiences of higher power is very very real, it'll be surprising when it happens. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by SgtPepper

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, SgtPepper said:

A mystical experience is more convincing then words.

Yes indeed. Yet without a conceptual framework, I’m more prone to dismissing a mystical experience as “woo woo”. 

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

Hello there! Glad you've gotten interested in this stuff! Definitely, the best way to proceed would be to buy Leo's booklist and start reading the books there. Just go there with an open mind, and with time you will start to build a model of what this is all about. 

I've bought the booklist a couple of years ago and my understanding of reality has increased exponentially. Since you are coming from the scientific perspective, I would start reading some critiques of materialism. Questions like: How can consciousness arise out of matter? How can life originate from matter? Is evolution really random?  It is not that hard to see that materialism has huge plot-holes.

Also, if I had to boil down spirituality to a few sentences it would be:

You really don't know who you are, what other is, what life is, what reality is, what mind is. It doesn't matter what other people tell you. In your experience, you have no clue. But now, what if I tell you that there is maybe a way to know all of this stuff that is beyond mind. Consider the possibility and inquire.

Bests of luck bud!

[SOUL]

People typically think of spirituality as a supernatural experience but I don't view it that way. I view it as a natural experience that is comprised of the individual but undivided physical, emotional and mental aspects of our being. The 'mystical' impression we get from this subjective experience is in the meaning, inspiration and connection we derive from it. There doesn't need to be anything 'extra' natural about it for it to be a 'spiritual' experience, it's a natural expression of conscious being.

Just something to keep in mind as you journey on your way to what I hope will be a joyous, fulfilling and peaceful path of being.

But convince you? Nah, aint my place to do such a thing.

Edited September 13, 2018 by SOUL