Isn't nonduality just another paradigm?

[Manjushri]

And not the absolute truth? 

[Shin]

Even if it is, the benefits described in all religions and spiritual guides is worth 1000000 its price.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Shin

[ajasatya]

3 minutes ago, Gligorije said:

Isn't nonduality just another paradigm and not the absolute truth? 

yes, it is just another paradigm. it becomes a concept when you give it a name or try to explain it.

"tell me a zen word or i'll kill this cat". wonderful koan!

[Basegodmike]

Every concept is inherently a paradigm, that's the problem with language. 

[Nahm]

@Gligorije It’s unbelivable, in the sense, try as hard as you can, the brain is incapable of imaging nonduality. What a paradox, imagination is. 

[Nahm]

@Shin Well. Look what the wind blew in. 

[Forestluv]

58 minutes ago, Gligorije said:

And not the absolute truth? 

That why it's so hard to speak about nonduality. There is everything and no thing. 

Would the concept of nonduality be within everything? Yes

Would the concept of duality be within everything? Yes

Would every possible thought regarding nonduality be within everything? Yes

The concepts of everything and nothing are hard to fathom since our brains have been programmed to perceive the world dualistically.

 

[SOUL]

Seeing everything in dualism is a misperception of the mind and isn't an accurate representation of existence so nonduality is merely a reaction to the misperception.

[WindInTheLeaf]

1 hour ago, Gligorije said:

And not the absolute truth? 

Nonduality is sort of the ending of paradigms, as it contains all paradigms. When we speak of it we try to explain that which lies beyond explanation, and attempt to guide thought to its end. It's like we are helping each-other find the key to our minds. But as you are pointing out, non-duality as an idea is dual in nature. It can point towards the truth but it can never be the truth.

[cetus]

It can be. Nisargadatta may have answered "whatever arises within consciousness is a paradigm". He wasn't in huge favor of "states". According to him non-duality is a state. So that could be seen as a paradigm. Absolute truth is no Knowing.  When the "I am" has gone into oblivion all that remains is the absolute.

Listen to what is said in the first 2 mins. 

 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, SOUL said:

Seeing everything in dualism is a misperception of the mind and isn't an accurate representation of existence so nonduality is merely a reaction to the misperception.

How is dualism a misperception? It is a perception that arises. How can anything that arises be a "mis"?

It's like looking at one of those pictures that can be perceived as a vase or as two faces. Which is a "misperception"?

On a larger scale, there are an infinite number of perceptions. Humans, bats, trees, ants, moles, birds etc - all perceive reality differently. I wouldn't consider any perception as a "misperception". 

[Mu_]

3 hours ago, Gligorije said:

And not the absolute truth? 

I wrote a long ass something or other, that may answer this in a drive by shooting kinda way.

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Mu_

[SOUL]

18 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

How is dualism a misperception? It is a perception that arises. How can anything that arises be a "mis"?

It's like looking at one of those pictures that can be perceived as a vase or as two faces. Which is a "misperception"?

On a larger scale, there are an infinite number of perceptions. Humans, bats, trees, ants, moles, birds etc - all perceive reality differently. I wouldn't consider any perception as a "misperception". 

Misperception is an incorrect perception.

Your comparison is an example of your mind mistakenly perceiving dualism because you suggest a dual only option premise, it's either one or the other and ask which is the misperception, one or the other. The very dual option premise itself is a misperception. Non-duality as a reaction to the mind's misperception of duality is both an implied endorsement of duality and setting another premise of duality.

So just as duality is a misperception, the reaction to it with non-duality is a misperception as well. Perceiving from awareness without the impressions of the mind and it's misperceptions is not creating another concept, non-duality, to negate those misperceptions of the mind, it's observing in clarity.

Perceiving from awareness will leave impressions in the mind that is entirely without the perception of dualism but isn't a reaction to dualism.

Did that clarify it?

[Forestluv]

I'm highlighting that nonduality includes what you wrote, the opposite of what you wrote and every possible variation of what you wrote. 

Don't get attached to any concept of nonduality. 

[SOUL]

I'm highlighting that perception from awareness is observation without thought, without concepts and without opposites.

So don't get attached to what I wrote.

[Forestluv]

@SOUL I agree that what you wrote is within nonduality. And the opposite of what you wrote is within nonduality. And the opposite of what I'm writing is within nonduality.

I've got no horse in the race.

 

[SOUL]

11 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@SOUL I agree that what you wrote is within nonduality. And the opposite of what you wrote is within nonduality. And the opposite of what I'm writing is within nonduality.

I've got no horse in the race.

 

If you have no 'horse' why did you quote me and challenge me to 'race'?

We could just run around willy nilly in the field enjoying the grass, I'm down with it.

You don't have to fit everything into your concept of nonduality..... jussayin'.

Edited September 10, 2018 by SOUL

[Joseph Maynor]

Try having ‘no paradigms’ for real.  This is the same issue as the so called ‘relativist’ that I called B.S. on before.  The real relativist is a myth, and so is not having any paradigms.  If you had no paradigms, you would be at a very low level of functioning.  I don’t even think it would be possible.  These things are myths taken as real possibilities.  

Non-duality is not just a paradigm. First of all, you’re gonna go through several awakenings on the path.  Each one of those awakenings can cause paradigm-shifts.  But non-duality is much more than Thought.  It’s realization accompanied by Thought.  But the realization can be seen directly without Thought.  The Thought is just a post-hoc story that’s more or less useful to maintain keen Awareness.  Thought is useful to be able to get you to see — but seeing has nothing to do with Thought.  Imagine you wanna see out a window way up above.  Thought would be the ladder you use to raise your body up to the level of the window so you can see out of it.  And then maybe after you see, you create Thought to remind yourself of what you saw when you looked out that window.

Non-duality is about seeing much more than it is about Thought.  Thought is just a tool not an end in Enlightenment Work.  The end is the seeing.  Those are your awakenings.  Thought is a reminder of your awakenings basically.  You have an awakening, a seeing, first and then you wanna spin a thought-story about it so you can preserve it.  Non-duality is not merely a paradigm, that’s way oversimplified.  Non-duality is more about keen mindfulness than anything if you wanna set it as one thing.  It’s literal and careful mindfulness — a looking without Thought filters — a seeing what’s literally, actually there.  Non-duality is about being very passionate about honoring and valuing literal Truth, no matter how painful the Truth is.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, SOUL said:

If you have no 'horse' why did you quote me and challenge me to 'race'?

We could just run around willy nilly in the field enjoying the grass, I'm down with it.

You don't have to fit everything into your concept of nonduality..... jussayin'.

The concepts the two of us are offering IS concepts the two of us are offering.

The challenge isn't the concept. The challenge is viewing a concept as a concept. 

The human mind loves to think X is Y. That's all we are doing here. You have one way of saying X is Y and I have another way of saying X is Y. The content of X and Y is irrelevant. How can X be Y?     X IS X and Y IS Y.

A concept of nonduality IS a concept of nonduality. A sunset IS a sunset. A thought about the meaning of life IS a thought about the meaning of life.

The human mind fixates on what is on the left and right side of IS. Yet, the key part is the IS. With time, that which is on the left and right side of IS dissolves and there is only IS. 

 

[Key Elements]

If you actually become the absolute, and it's over, and you're back into your ego (body/embodiment), and then, you're obsessed with it. Sure, it becomes a paradigm. (The absolute itself is not.) You'll be back to chopping wood and carrying water, whether you like it or not. However, are you able to apply that wisdom in your life in some way: that we are all one? If so, then it gets different.