Is the pursuit of enlightenment escapism?

[Fuku]

Yeah, this question might seem extremely stupid, especially in a community that focuses on this (as I do). But what makes me ask this kind of question is stuff like the way buddhist monks or similar people that are said to be enlightened are fading out of society (I know it sounds orange, but if it is, then what is the opposite, detaching yourself from the society/material world?), and using most of their time to meditate and do spiritual work.
So what is their goal? Roughly said, experiencing presence and non-duality/oneness?
What if you do understand this concept and start implementing it in you daily life, and progressively become more and more enlightened, until you are able to stay in this state for most of your day. Then what? If that's the case, then you're just left with """reality""" as we know it. I'm pretty sure the pursuit of this ends up in some kind of joke like "you get it now, go leave a simple life and enjoy it."
Or maybe the goal is to help others change their mind to reach at least green level. But I don't really feel like a leader or a teacher, it doesn't resonate with me.

More personal stuff here, but kinda linked to this topic : I feel like I'm on the dark night of the soul phase. Maybe because I understood bigger truths, and I've felt some tiny fragments of truth (I know this is insulting for people that have put so much work to reach this big concept, that have studied for decades or take drugs to see it, so I might be mistaken, but that's how I feel at least), very intense moments where everything clicked, like "it's simple, it's all so beautiful" that made me cry.
And these changes I felt in my perception leave me in a world that doesn't match this. I also feel like doing basically nothing, just being. I would love to go on a spiritual retreat, a very long one even, but my obligations like work and my surroundings make it hard.
And in my case, it feels even more like escapism, because I feel (again, might be wrong about where I'm at) that I totally skipped stage orange. I don't feel linked to the material world at all. I understand it, I like being it for some time, but I'm someone that's the opposite of orange. Lifeless job, basically no relationships in my whole life at some point in my life, a few years ago, I forced myself to go toward girls cause I spent most of my life not to, I discovered sex -yes, very late-, fell in love, and even if those are beautiful moments when you're in synch with the other person, I don't really feel like doing it anymore. I feel like it's all some sort of puny game (to me. I don't say it is for everyone, it depends on where you're at, and maybe I will feel more strongly about if I evolve).
I might also be desensitized from a life of screens, fictions, and introverted friends (mostly). So maybe I just need to try and throw myself in the orange bath to overcome this.

Sorry, this last part probably just turned into some kind of unrelated and messy sort of venting, and you can go over it if you feel like discussing the basic idea I wrote in the title and the first part of this post.
I also wish I could explain myself more concisely and clearly, but it seems like I'm not able to right now, so sorry for the mess.

 

[Forestluv]

Yes, the pursuit of enlightenment can be a nasty trap. For 20 years part of my core identity was someone walking down a spiritual path.

In the first half, you seem to be speculating what an enlighten life might look like and if it’s worth it. I’ve found I have to keep surrending more and more of my ego. It takes trust in the process to do it. The enlightened teachers are amazing. It seems so true. So I try to trust more and more that it is true. 

I have also gone through phases where I have no motivation. It’s like the personal will had dissolved. Yet, over time a depper will emerged.

[Fuku]

Yeah, I agree with that last part, peaks and lows and the fact that you have to endure even after grasping a tiny bit of truth. You think it will be easierbut then you might plunge deeper and feel lost. Probably the ego backlash syndrome Leo and others teachers are talking about.
 

15 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

In the first half, you seem to be speculating what an enlighten life might look like and if it’s worth it.

Putting the finger on something that's one of my biggest flaws here. Overthinking. I know it's paradoxical to understanding presence and simply being, but yeah, those can't obviously be achieved on a consistant basis right after (or even years after) understanding how things should be.
I think I love thinking, discussing and researching because it keeps me away from doing things on the material aspect, society. And this again leads me to think that looking for deeper and deeper truth is some kind of escapism. Again, this may be personal, but the more I talk about it the more it makes sense that my lack of experience with orange levels leaves a hole into me and that maybe I should experience it hardcore, only to get past it later and jump higher after that.
But at the same time, it makes sense to me that orange is important (not being fully orange, but using orange's tools). After all, you kinda have to sustain yourself and stimulate yourself with a daily life that resonnates with you, or you get depressed like I am (all my progress couldn't really help get rid of it, I think I'm one of those persons that has a very high level of depression and can't get rid of it for life, but I never really went to see any professional about it, so I don't know. I only it lasted for waaay too long, and that it's so strong that it makes me totally useless half the time.)


 

[Saumaya]

@Fuku for an average pursuit of enlightenment, excessive enlightenment work can be an escape. For a serious seeker, living your day to day life will become escapism.

[Mu_]

57 minutes ago, Fuku said:

Yeah, this question might seem extremely stupid, especially in a community that focuses on this (as I do). But what makes me ask this kind of question is stuff like the way buddhist monks or similar people that are said to be enlightened are fading out of society (I know it sounds orange, but if it is, then what is the opposite, detaching yourself from the society/material world?), and using most of their time to meditate and do spiritual work.
So what is their goal? Roughly said, experiencing presence and non-duality/oneness?
What if you do understand this concept and start implementing it in you daily life, and progressively become more and more enlightened, until you are able to stay in this state for most of your day. Then what? If that's the case, then you're just left with """reality""" as we know it. I'm pretty sure the pursuit of this ends up in some kind of joke like "you get it now, go leave a simple life and enjoy it."
Or maybe the goal is to help others change their mind to reach at least green level. But I don't really feel like a leader or a teacher, it doesn't resonate with me.

More personal stuff here, but kinda linked to this topic : I feel like I'm on the dark night of the soul phase. Maybe because I understood bigger truths, and I've felt some tiny fragments of truth (I know this is insulting for people that have put so much work to reach this big concept, that have studied for decades or take drugs to see it, so I might be mistaken, but that's how I feel at least), very intense moments where everything clicked, like "it's simple, it's all so beautiful" that made me cry.
And these changes I felt in my perception leave me in a world that doesn't match this. I also feel like doing basically nothing, just being. I would love to go on a spiritual retreat, a very long one even, but my obligations like work and my surroundings make it hard.
And in my case, it feels even more like escapism, because I feel (again, might be wrong about where I'm at) that I totally skipped stage orange. I don't feel linked to the material world at all. I understand it, I like being it for some time, but I'm someone that's the opposite of orange. Lifeless job, basically no relationships in my whole life at some point in my life, a few years ago, I forced myself to go toward girls cause I spent most of my life not to, I discovered sex -yes, very late-, fell in love, and even if those are beautiful moments when you're in synch with the other person, I don't really feel like doing it anymore. I feel like it's all some sort of puny game (to me. I don't say it is for everyone, it depends on where you're at, and maybe I will feel more strongly about if I evolve).
I might also be desensitized from a life of screens, fictions, and introverted friends (mostly). So maybe I just need to try and throw myself in the orange bath to overcome this.

Sorry, this last part probably just turned into some kind of unrelated and messy sort of venting, and you can go over it if you feel like discussing the basic idea I wrote in the title and the first part of this post.
I also wish I could explain myself more concisely and clearly, but it seems like I'm not able to right now, so sorry for the mess.

 

Don't think about blue, orange, green, yellow, or Turq. to much, it sounds like a mental distraction for a person like you who recognizes they think to much.  My sense is you need to really sit down with yourself and get a little real.  Set aside sometime to do this.  Close your eyes, put your hand on your heart, meditate for 5-10 minutes and really go as deep as you can and ask yourself, what is it I'd wish I'd done with my life if I died today, what would I have really liked to do, know, understand, change, have said, anything what ever it is, write it down.   Do this for a week each day until you've really got something and go with that and dont look back till its complete.  If you dont come up with something after a week, accept this phase of your life as a transition, relax, make the most of your job, relationships and community, maybe meditating from time to time, realizing your complete and nothing needs to happen, your good with everything up to your life at that point and theres nothing wrong with that.

[yawning_]

3 hours ago, Saumaya said:

@Fuku for an average pursuit of enlightenment, excessive enlightenment work can be an escape. For a serious seeker, living your day to day life will become escapism.

this really resonates...

 

if i may elaborate -

from either side, the importance of doing the enlightenment practices should be "stressed" (for lack of a better word) so that neither pursuit nor escape turn into tenancies of distraction from the other.

 

in other words

>regardless of intention, primary focus on the practices toward enlightenment will allow all else to fall into place<

(for the average - the practices will lend to greater functionality in day to day / for the serious - emphasis on the practices will ultimately allow for less resistance toward integration)

 

 

ñ̫̪̫͙̳͕͖͒̍ͧ̓ͣ͗̄ͫ͆̃̋a̱̣̪̪͈̖̭̙͍̭̯͈̭̣̼͕̜͉̖̒͐͋̍͋́͛ͦm̺̯̦͔̠͍̗̳͕͙͚̤͖̣̝͕͙̣̉ͦ̂ͬͧͤ͗̾̉́́̚ā̲̦͓̲̮̲̬̜̣̤͔̼̱̮͗̓͗͊̐͗̈́̈̒̄͗̽͂̆̇̏̄̄ͅs͔͔̫̙̫͈̝̰̫͒ͤ̈̑͒ͯ̃ͥ̍̐ͩ̔̇͛t̳͖͕͈͓͎̱̥͈ͨͯ̓̍̋ͯ̋ͮͤ̔̏͋̏̎̿̍̆̚ͅͅͅe̬͔̙̣̖̘̪̹̯̖̙ͮ̎ͭ̎

 

- yawning gap

 

[Fuku]

13 hours ago, yawning_ said:

this really resonates...

It does! I feel the importance of this but I can't quite grasp it fully yet. This sounds like a very good piece of advice tho, thank you.

I find spiral dynamics very convenient and it makes a lot of sense, but you're right, I should go deeper into myself before trying to see higher. Cause right now I feel relieved that my views on the world changed so much, but I also don't know where to go at all. The more I get rid of bits of my old identity, the weirder it gets.

 

[Mu_]

1 hour ago, Fuku said:

It does! I feel the importance of this but I can't quite grasp it fully yet. This sounds like a very good piece of advice tho, thank you.

I find spiral dynamics very convenient and it makes a lot of sense, but you're right, I should go deeper into myself before trying to see higher. Cause right now I feel relieved that my views on the world changed so much, but I also don't know where to go at all. The more I get rid of bits of my old identity, the weirder it gets.

 

Yes it does get weirder and weirder, just wait till you dissolve into emptiness for the first time.  But yea, look into yourself first, and get some real clarity.

[Haumea2018]

Quote

And these changes I felt in my perception leave me in a world that doesn't match this. I also feel like doing basically nothing, just being. I would love to go on a spiritual retreat, a very long one even, but my obligations like work and my surroundings make it hard.

That's a passing phase.  In fact, on the road to full awakening, there may be a few phases like that.

Ramaji's 900s are actually the last stage like that: a near Self-realization with a rejection of the world as flawed.

So don't worry about it.  Take care of the body and keep on trucking. That's my best advice: get enough sleep, get exercise and relieve stress as much as possible (in a healthy way.)

(And I would add, don't worry about structures of consciousness.  No offense to Ken Wilber and others, but that can be a subtle ego derailment from full awakening, a seeking "fork".  If you fully awaken, the structure stuff will take care of itself as it needs to.)

Edited September 9, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Jack River]

As long as we see the illusion in trying to become psychologically it’s all good. Just to see the game in moving away from what is and it’s all good dudes

[kieranperez]

This is such an important topic and trap I’m finding myself at risk of going into for sure. 

First recommendation: read the memoir in @Leo Gura‘s booklist in the enlightenment section. That monk is a great example of what it means to have both a positive and a healthy drive towards this path. Not going into this path of enlightenment from a place of deficiency, which leads me to my personal 2 cents on this matter. 

I think it’s worth chatting yourself on Maslow’s hierarchy on this and analyze within yourself where you are mentally and emotionally. Idk how deep you really want to go with this path but I urge you to really look within honestly and question how much out of this do you want and really contemplate and do some homework on what people actually do and go through in this path so that you can be honest and disabused about any fantasies about this path. Once you really contemplate and start to get an idea, really look within and be honest with yourself and ask ‘is that something I can handle right now? Is my character right now strong enough for that?’ It’s important to be honest about this because I think going into this work when you’re still coming from a place of lack and deficiency can really limit growth towards enlightenment and actually cause more harm than good. Also because the risk of zen devilry is really high too.

I think if you still have a lot more room to grow with stuff like certain emotional issues, self-esteem (self-respect and self-efficacy), confidence, trauma, shadow stuff, etc. pursue meditation and contemplation still daily but really strengthen and also heal your character before you go all in and balls to the wall. Build the momentum. 

I hope this helps! All the best! And remember, this is just my perspective and certainly not my only one. However, I find it to be a very relevant and important one. 

[Joseph Maynor]

It is if you willingly stay in Hell after you know the way out.

(1) God is the true Self, which is God Awareness, the only 'thing' that actually exists.
(2) Heaven is God Awareness fully groking that it's the only thing that actually exists, and that it exists outside Maya a.k.a. outside Thought and Experience.  Heaven is also grokking that Maya can't hurt God Awareness because it's an illusion, in other words, Thought and Experience are an illusion that can't hurt God Awareness in any way.
(3) The Devil is the seductor that tries to lure God Awareness into forgetting that He's God and losing Himself by enmeshment into Maya a.k.a. Thought and Experience.  Another way to think of the Devil is as Triggers into Maya a.k.a. Triggers into Thought and Experience.
(4) Hell is when your Awareness loses sight of the fact (or never knew the fact in the first place) that it's the only thing that actually exists and becomes enmeshed within the illusion of Maya a.k.a. Thought and Experience.  This is what causes all suffering; namely, when Awareness gets enmeshed in illusory Maya a.k.a. illusory Thought and Experience.  This is not simply analogous to being caught in a bad dream and waking up with your heart pounding out of your chest.  This is being caught in any dream at all, even positive ones, and not just when you're sleeping.  All enmeshment in Maya a.k.a. Thought and Experience just is Samsara, which leads to Dukkha (suffering).  

Edited September 9, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Soulbass]

2 insights

 

talking with random people, who are not into spirituality :

even your "lucidity" is an illusion, because it is part of a dream (a feature of the dream).

 

talking with a psychic/channel :

all your knowledge about spirituality is a human experience, it belong to earth and it will return to earth.

[Good-boy]

Absolutely, it is just mind tricks to escape the truth. Truth that you are the ego and the ego is necessary to survive in this world. So the ego creates this glse model of non duality and escapes the reality (feelings, emotions, thoughts) to cut itself from the society both physically and mentally. Then the ego comes back, followed by isolating again after few days and the circle keeps repeating until you are dead. Check the "serious mental pissues" thread where this guy committed suicide after seeing for 40 years, the guy realized that he wasted all this time and committed suicide.

[Joseph Maynor]

2 minutes ago, Good-boy said:

Absolutely, it is just mind tricks to escape the truth. Truth that you are the ego and the ego is necessary to survive in this world. So the ego creates this glse model of non duality and escapes the reality (feelings, emotions, thoughts) to cut itself from the society both physically and mentally. Then the ego comes back, followed by isolating again after few days and the circle keeps repeating until you are dead. Check the "serious mental pissues" thread where this guy committed suicide after seeing for 40 years, the guy realized that he wasted all this time and committed suicide.

Think about how much time people spend staring at pages and screens.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Good-boy]

1 minute ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Think about how much time people spend staring at pages and screens.

There are no people, pages and screens man, it's just consciousness looking at itself.

[Joseph Maynor]

5 minutes ago, Good-boy said:

There are no people, pages and screens man, it's just consciousness looking at itself.

Exactly.  But there's Awareness though.  There's keen Awareness.  There's Awareness that's lost in Thought and Experience and then there's Awareness that knows who it is.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Good-boy]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

Exactly.  But there's Awareness though.  

Awarenesses is aware of itself too. You see it's everything and nothing at the same time. All interconnected in one single awarenesses/consciousness.

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Good-boy said:

Awarenesses is aware of itself too. You see it's everything and nothing at the same time. All interconnected in one single awarenesses/consciousness.

It depends on how you want to conceptualize it I guess.  

Edited September 10, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Misagh]

"Is the pursuit of enlightenment escapism?"

No. This is an argument the ego produces to defend its position once it begins to realizes how shaky it is. All it's really doing is trying to convince itself that it is useful. That without it, this tough character that is able to withstand the injustice of (what it thinks is a) mechanical world, all hell would break loose.