How do I know if I am manipulating myself

[B_Naz]

Complementing and this occurred to me...

So I have my mind, and it stores/creates memory for me. Then thoughts are created by these memories and thus are just expressions of memories. I am aware of these memories/thoughts

This is only something I figured out for myself, and not saying it is true for all but this is something I observed and seen.

But then.. This got me thinking, all the work that I do, are ultimately stored within my mind, within the brain. So my progression has obviously been influencde by the work. This would be a good thing right but...

How do I know that my actions or progression or path isn't just copying the things I've read and done work on from thoughts/memory? Then when the insights comes in, it's just from the memory rather than within or "Truth"

Isn't this just manipulation?

Then the other side of me says "I practised the things that I read up on, and it is true"... But is it only true BECAUSE i read upon it? 

Here's an example (really stupid one) if you don't understand the topic

Truth is that... If you eat cake every day, you will be happy. So If I actually ate a cake everyday, is it because of the Truth that cake makes me happy, or is it my memory of that Truth manipulating me to think that I am happy? So if I didn't learn this "Truth", would I be happy if I ate the cake regardless??

 

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by B_Naz

[Misagh]

Not sure what "complementing" means but I think you meant to say "contemplating". Regardless I will walk you through your writing

"So I have my mind, and it stores/creates memory for me."

The mind does not create thoughts. The mind 'IS' thoughts. Thought is the nature of mind. Without thoughts, mind would not exist. But YOU would. 

Who is this "I" who has a mind? This is the important question. In truth, it is not YOU who is manipulating yourself. It is the your mind that is obscuring the truth of your existence. This 'I' itself is a thought. Therefore, it is the mind manipulating itself (a thought manipulates itself). The mind CANNOT manipulate the real you. So all you have to do is to realize this true nature of yourself, which exists as an eternal witness to all these thoughts. 

"This got me thinking, all the work that I do, are ultimately stored within my mind, within the brain. So my progression has obviously been influencde by the work. This would be a good thing right but..."

What you described here is Karma. Karma exists for the ego, the "I", but not for the Self (the witness). 

"How do I know that my actions or progression or path isn't just copying the things I've read and done work on from thoughts/memory?... Isn't this just manipulation?"

No it's not, and this is not a bad thing. The ONLY point mediation/yoga/satsangs/drugs etc etc. have is to imitate the state of enlightenment. It is good to copy a good practice that can bring about fleeting stages of Samadhi (nirvana, liberation. moksha etc). The residual impressions from these momentary states will eventually seep into your mind, purify it, and grant you permanent liberation. 

"Truth is that... If you eat cake every day, you will be happy."

Then eat the cake and be happy. Don't worry about whether the happiness is truth or a lie. Happiness cannot be a lie, therefore there is no point in creating this second mind who watches over the authenticity of this happiness. That by itself will cause unhappiness! 

[B_Naz]

@Misagh such a beautiful answer. Thank you! <3

[Misagh]

@B_Naz <3

[XYZ]

No need to overthink it so much. If you can accept that there is no objective experience, everything you perceive is some sort of self-manipulation, or personal filter, you can manipulate yourself into being the best version of yourself.

[B_Naz]

This is not working for me... I'm still lost here. Good insights here but something is missing

What I have also seen is that my ego responds to everything. Every action is a swift movement of my ego mind, but I only have awareness of this.

What I've discovered is that if I learn something new, let's say I watch a new video by Leo, I surely respond to that video through actions, and through my thoughts. It gets stored in my mind, and I respond to that memory. I feel like I'm stimulating rather than being.

You can copy and purify it, but again with the purification, it's affected by "you" still. The purification could just lie

My ego could lie. How do I spot the lie? Any videos would be appreciated 

The ego isn't bad... It's just that I don't clouding

Edited September 7, 2018 by B_Naz

[Forestluv]

Have you watched Leo’s series on self deception? That might help.

[B_Naz]

@Serotoninluv Now that is something I haven't watched. I didnt know he had a video on this 

[Forestluv]

@B_Naz I think it’s a three part series

[B_Naz]

@Serotoninluv Yep. Just in the first 20 mins of part 1, and a lot of strong insights already like I am actually tricking myself. The mind and it's structure is deception-making, and not the influence of the outside. It's actually so obvious lol

 

[Wisebaxter]

@B_Naz I've had this question floating around in my mind too. How many of my actions are ego and mind based? How can I trust myself? Am I reacting to the enlightened me or the ego? This may not capture your enquiry perfectly but hopefully it's in the same ball park. 

The answer to all of my confusion and turmoil has recently revealed itself to me - let go, of everything. Stop forcing your mind and creating resistance. Resistance always comes from the illusion of control, of needing an 'I' to be in the driving seat because we're afraid of what will happen if we submit. The truth is there is no 'I' and control is an illusion anyway. When you try and answer these kind of questions you create resistance, not control. It's easy to deceive ourselves into thinking we're now in control, whereas really we've just manipulated ourselves and created a new experience of resistance. 

The universal intelligence will be able to speak through you, or you'll become it, once you let go and accept whatever's there. Empty your mind of idealogy and this desperate need to 'know' and your intuition will then kick in. Whatever you feel drawn towards, naturally, that's where you should go. Flow with the river of life and let it lead you. Practicing 'Do Nothing' meditation will help build up this skill. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Wisebaxter

[B_Naz]

1 hour ago, Wisebaxter said:

Resistance always comes from the illusion of control, of needing an 'I' to be in the driving seat because we're afraid of what will happen if we submit.

This is very true. Sometimes I even have self-doubts about the things I learn, and those self-doubts are fears of submitting. If I submit to something, and it's "fake" or "lies" then I feel like shit. But the trick is... Everything is fake and lie. Everything is a construction by the mind. Something I still need to experience.

But it isn't really a question of control. It's more like, is this the actual Truth? Well, not even Truth but is it right? But the need to know if this is the actual Truth/Right is just self-deception and a distraction. That's where the root is or close to it  

So I'm slowly seeing this distraction and root. Still needs work though

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by B_Naz

[Wisebaxter]

@B_Naz

Quote

But it isn't really a question of control. It's more like, is this the actual Truth? Well, not even Truth but is it right? But the need to know if this is the actual Truth/Right is just self-deception and a distraction.

Yeah I understand you completely. When you realise that all thoughts/concepts are illusory it can leave you feeling quite disoriented. This is something I've been grappling with recently, trying to figure out what direction to take, what's 'right' as you say..and I finally feel like I'm making some progress. Leo and Peter Ralston, two gurus I follow, are always talking about the truth of direct experience...what this means is..what's true in your experience? If you experienced it, then it's true for you, even if on further investigation, in turns out to be a manipulation. I'll use an example. I'm angry with my wife as she said she wants to leave me. Thats the truth as I'm experiencing it right now. Right now I am authentically angry. But what else is there, in my experience? What's behind the anger? What is the anger protecting? Fear that she no longer loves me. I just had a tangible sense of that..so the anger is a way of masking that vulnerability. So there's another truth. 

What I'm getting at is, anything I experience is true, even a concept, even a manipulation. If I worry that I'm manipulating, then it's true that I'm worried I'm manipulating, so I investigate for further truths, for effects that are leading to effects. The effect of her saying she's leaving makes me scared, the effect of being scared makes me vulnerable. When I'm vulnerable I get angry to restore control and power. In my maze, everything I experience is true, from one experience to the next. A manipulation is still a truth, see? But it in and of itself is making another truth. So we peel back the layers. 

For a life goal example..I want to be a music producer. I have a feeling its because I want to connect people through music...so that feeling is the truth. I also have a fear that I'm just doing it for attention...so that fear is the truth, not the thing it points to (me doing it for attention...but the fear itself). Why is this fear there? What's behind that? Maybe I'm afraid that my ego is hijacking me - why am I afraid of that? Because then I won't be able to muster up the passion to actually do it...another fear. So what direction do I go in? I've discovered all of these fears but still I'm not sure what action to take. 

I'll take this back to letting go of control again. Once we do that our true intentions will start to become clear over time. The universe will speak through us and as long as we remove manipulations that are there through control (manipulations are always there to force control and are a tool of the ego/survival) then I can learn to trust myself again. This is all a question of trust, right? Let go of control and your heart will speak, the true universal self. 

Quote

If I submit to something, and it's "fake" or "lies" then I feel like shit

Are you referring to discovering a manipulation has taken place? If so this should be a sign that you're doing something right. You're allowing things to be and then discovering that there was more at play than you first assumed. Don't get demoralised by these 'failures,' as they're actually great successes. You're being an explorer and not a crazed gold miner. There is a truth here that discovering manipulations make you feel like shit? Why is that a truth for you? What is behind this feeling of disappointment? A fear of having wasted time? A fear of helplessness? Hone in on that feeling and discover further truths. 

You sound pretty switched on so I'm sure you'll figure this all out. From reading your other posts a lot of this has probably been teaching you to suck eggs somewhat. As long as you're on the path and you're contemplating you'll get to the truth. I'm still learning myself so I can't be sure all of this is accurate, but one thing I know is, it's true that I just experienced it all  

See how much I had to write though to try and get some truth on this? And I'm not even sure it wasn't all bullshit hahaha - there's a truth. I re-iterate - the quickest way to truth is so let it all go and then see what surfaces from a neutral space. If you're still in doubt, read Peter Ralston's 'The Book of not Knowing.' Get the advice from an enlightened master on this exact topic. 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Wisebaxter

[ajasatya]

On 07/09/2018 at 3:02 AM, B_Naz said:

How do I know if I am manipulating myself

by knowing very clearly two things

1. what you want
2. what it takes to get it

then you compare your daily practice with the 2nd item. do they match?

[B_Naz]

15 hours ago, Wisebaxter said:

What I'm getting at is, anything I experience is true, even a concept, even a manipulation. If I worry that I'm manipulating, then it's true that I'm worried I'm manipulating, so I investigate for further truths, for effects that are leading to effects.

I really like this. I need to include everything, even the manipulations. Thank you for saying I'm pretty switched on, it just reminded me to keep on carrying on with the contemplating, and go deeper with the questions like you asked e.g. what is actual manipulation.

I need to also explore more into epistemology

@ajasatya Solid advice, but what about if you don't actually know what you want? With this work, I sometimes feel like I don't even know what I want. Why do I want to make myself liberated, is there a reason to? Liberation seems egoistical? Perhaps these are just distractions and self-deceptions to stop me from advancing...

[Nahm]

@B_Naz You already know what you don’t want, you just aren’t confident enough to behonest with yourself in admitting it. When you stop bullshitting yourself about ego, spirituality, selfishness, selflessness, enlightenment, delusion, truth, etc - you’ll realize you have known what you want for a long time, because you identified what you don’t want a very long time ago. You are fully capable of having and doing anything you can dream up, and the only ‘thing’ that has ever, could ever, and will ever stop you - is your own thoughts that you can’t. The punchline is, everything you’re using to construct the thoughts that ‘maybe you can’t’, is also you. It’s not that you are manipulating yourself, it’s that you convinced yourself there is anything other than yourself.

[B_Naz]

59 minutes ago, Nahm said:

You already know what you don’t want, you just aren’t confident enough to behonest with yourself in admitting it.

This is something to seriously ponder about...

59 minutes ago, Nahm said:

When you stop bullshitting yourself about ego, spirituality, selfishness, selflessness, enlightenment, delusion, truth, etc - you’ll realize you have known what you want for a long time, because you identified what you don’t want a very long time ago.

But don't I need to do all of this bullshit to actually see what I don't want?

I think I have convinced myself that there is anything other than myself... I've kinda lost myself? is that what you're trying to say?

[Nahm]

@B_Naz There’s no question you’ve convinced yourself there is anything other than yourself. That’s inherent in the questioning of what the self is. Right now, pen & paper, write down what you don’t want. Look at it, and make a new list. A list of what you want. What you want in this life. Honestly. The variable isn’t what you do and don’t want, that is always playing itself out, the variable is how honest you will be with yourself. Wether you will let the influence of things you’ve made up, things you think are other-than-you, the religions, the philosophies, the Nahms, the Leos, the K-Mans - cause you doubt yourself, to over think and to fear, to such a degree, that you can’t even write down what you - really - want - while in a room, alone. You’re the only show in town. You can do anything. 

[B_Naz]

@Nahm I want to be what I'm supposed to be. This is the key. What I don't want is not to be the real me. To be lied to

 I have a vision in my life, the materialistic vision, but you are right in saying I don't have anything for the me. 

[Nahm]

@B_Naz Are you aware of things you want in your life? Things you want to experience? Places you want to see? Talents you’d like to develop? Even things you want to buy?