I Can't Comprehend Non-Duality

[Toby]

@Joseph Maynor @Saumaya May I ask why Ken Wilber is perceived as "outside" when you are talking about "your" "Enlightenment"?

Edited September 9, 2018 by Toby

[Toby]

So you say: "don't listen to anyone outside but go inside". Why would I listen to that? Isn't that also just as theoretical / outside as Ken Wilber?

[Jack River]

I think it’s healthy to listen dudes. But that takes freedom. No psychological freedom then we accept or deny what others say without even actually listening to them. This has really helped me over the last month and a half. Think this is what is being said here. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

 

8 hours ago, Faceless said:

Indeed. “The self” inherently moves positively-negatively or sustains its own movement by evading (what is) to (what should be-abstraction). Psychological time, or (psychological becoming), contributes to the self feeding loop of time as “the i”. 

That damn loop

 

8 hours ago, Faceless said:

Awareness is freedom. 

Fosho dude

[Jack River]

9 hours ago, Haumea2018 said:

My technical term for this is the ego "boom-bust" or "inflationary-deflationary" dynamic.

 whoa!! Nice

Edited September 9, 2018 by Jack River

[Haumea2018]

I'm leaning more and more towards the idea that conscious structure development such as Wilber advocates is an ego delusion, and in certain cases actually a trap for seekers, including Wilber himself.

It's typical of the 700s stage, where more and more elaborate hierarchies and conscious development are focused on.

I don't think he has a depth of understanding of full awakening.  He understands its superficial features, but not all of its implications.

This is not to say that there isn't descriptive validity to it; I'm just talking about the idea that you can consciously develop to higher structures: that is the delusion.  

If there is a process there it is spontaneous and unconscious.  I'm afraid forcing it consciously can result in distortions, projections and greater delusions.

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Toby]

5 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

I don't think he has a depth of understanding of full awakening.

That's right imo. His description of states doesn't go beyond what Nisargadatta would call universal consciousness or unity conscious (still within the "I Am" spectrum). Doesn't mean that his stuff isn't valuable as a map in many many other areas of life though. But it has it's flaws. Just as Ramaji's map and his ratings has it's flaws.

[Haumea2018]

Quote

Just as Ramaji's map and his ratings has it's flaws.

 I didn't understand why Genghis Khan was at 1000, but then I read "Genghis Khan and The Making of The Modern World" and it became clear.  He basically pioneered tolerance of religion (had clergymen of several different faiths in his court), and I think, frankly, there's more myth than fact turning him into a bloodthirsty monster of some kind.  Unless one has read good books on him, it's easy to fall prey to Western and Arab historical propaganda.  For the medieval era, it's perfectly plausible he was enlightened (just not a religious avatar, which few enlightened people are anyway.)

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/159818

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Saumaya]

@Feel Good No problem

That picture is from Ken wilber's No Boundary book, I read that a while ago, its my favourite ken wilber book

Edited September 10, 2018 by Saumaya

[Saumaya]

13 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Do your own work and then come tell us about that.  You gotta focus inward.  Your systems need to come out of you.  Forget about Ken Wilbur.

I should have just said that from the beginning lol, that was one of my points

Edited September 10, 2018 by Saumaya

[Saumaya]

12 hours ago, Feel Good said:

I have one more thing to point out to you.

It's very obvious that whatever stage you are at in horizontal enlightenment you will function at that stage.

You just proved it when you projected your own mentality onto me without realizing it. 

The cool guru thing. 

That's you buddy. That's the mind structure you are one with. 

And that's a shadow aspect right there because you imagined your own mentality to be inside me.

See? 

Integral model is spookily accurate once you learn it, it's not some random ideology, it's an actual map of samsara and the characteristics of samsara.

You should study it. It's very useful tool 

 Projection is juxtaposing your own insecurities, wants and needs onto another person. If I assume your male, am I projecting? Making assumptions about people is not necessarily projecting

I have studied the integral model a while back. Out of 5 or 4 books, the only thing useful I got was the spectrum of consciousness thing from his book, No boundary

I didnt imagine. You have it. If you dont, then it is mental mastrubation. Why are you discussing 3rd tier, without any personal insights to back it up. As Joseph have said, Hearsay is not sufficient in enlightenment work. If you are reading it for curiosity, then you were having an intellectual debate, nothing else.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Saumaya

[Toby]

But even if you have some "direct" experience. Cannot an "external map" serve as a mirror to see your own blind spots? For example the Enneagram would also be "external", but as a map / mirror to show one's blindspots it is unmatched imo. But it also takes courage, just as getting feedback from teachers does.

[SOUL]

These stages are mind mazes of self slicing and dicing

Fragmenting and dementing still renting the bent thing.

So you buy in and fly it rhyming reasons why you bite.

Don't take the jab step spin move pump fake and hoop.

Just another net to smother intention in demonization.

The frame game by any other name is the same blame

Spinning spiral social dynamics follow me and go viral

It's fresh new words on age old turds to feed the herds.

Edited September 10, 2018 by SOUL

[LaraGreenbridge]

Hi @Finland3286,

to answer your original question-

Yes, 'non-duality' is a conceptual thing. 

As well as being a concept, it can alter your perception of things, to a degree. However, if it doesn't alter the way you are experiencing life, it doesn't mean that you are less spiritual than anyone else, or that you 'just don't get it'. 

Some people fall in love with the concept of non-duality, and others don't. It may be that you find it more rewarding to go and do some volunteer work or emerge yourself in prayer or else just enjoy art, music, nature and other beautiful things. All these activities also have enormous spiritual value. 

As for myself, I had a bad experience with non-duality teachings and I prefer not to bother with it, for now. 

My understanding is that non-dualists believe that everything is 'one'. Everything you see and experience is just the great play of consciousness unfolding. There is no real separation... we only believe we are separate from the universe because of the way we have been socially conditioned. But that conditioning is an illusion.

Once we see through this illusion, we will feel at peace within ourselves and act far more compassionately towards everyone and everything else. Utopia.

"How, when, where and why" we see through the illusion, is the topic of much prolonged debate! These debates seem to lack a lot of compassion, in many cases. 

Non-duality is sometimes a helpful adjunct to leading a good, happy and rewarding life. Sometimes it is not helpful. Another paradox, lol.