I Can't Comprehend Non-Duality

[Saumaya]

1 minute ago, Toby said:

Because that teacher might point out things you are unable to see for yourself. That is the main reason.

You need teacher for half baked awakening, not enlightenment. Enlightenment is clear as day. Even if you go to a teacher, it won't change anything

[Toby]

Enlightenment trap described from Shinzen Young: https://youtu.be/i288Lnb7NOk?t=4m48s

 

[yawning_]

10 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

12 minutes ago, Feel Good said:

Feel a little heat from another forum member? Don't worry, just throw in an ad hominem - Trump style!

That's should sort it? 

The Donald Trump of Actualized.org.

You're comparing me to Donald Trump?  That is enough to ruin your credibility forever.  I'll give this to you, you don't know me personally.  But that's a huge benefit of the doubt I'm giving you.  Have fun on the Forum.

this thread was about comprehending non-duality, remember?

lighten up would you two, this isn't about antagonizing or poking fun at one another. 

 

ultimately there are no sides to take, its just a game of the judge and the victim the ego likes to play... 

assume neither part so we can not hinder progress...

 

 

n̳͇̝͚̲̙̤̤̦̫̩̭̪͇͔̤̲̏͗ͩͨ̈́̐ͬ̿ͅa̖̯̥̣̣̲̙̦͓̩͛ͭ͋̒̽̈ͨ̈́̈́̓ͤͩ̐̑̊͐ͣͨm̫͇̱̮̭͖ͣ͆͆͗̈́̿ͣ̈́͐ͪͫ̚a̜̲̤̩͂ͯ̈́́͋͐͑̉ͮ̄̆ͧ͋̓̆s͙͈̮̱̜̋̉ͨ̓̋̉͑̏ͫ̈̈ͮ̅̉ͤt̜̜̜̖̾ͩͣ̂ͧ̑̑̈̽̍ͩ́ě̱̤͎̮̹̪͉̙̺̀̆̈́̌̽̒̐̽̈̍̀ͦͩ̂̐͛ͅͅ

 

- yawning gap

[Saumaya]

@Joseph Maynor Generally newer people in personal development have conduct like this. Anyway it's fine, you can't expect everyone to be well developed and mature because, you don't know what the other person went through or what is their background

[yawning_]

whatever it is, lets stop drawing lines in the sand

there is no need for opposition, or any identification with separation for that matter...

 

n͇̗͕̺̭̼̮͍͕ͦͤ̎͆̒̒a͓͚̗̥̹̯͉̖̳͈͎̠͕ͯ̔͋̓ͬḿ̫̬̣̜̿͆̏ͥa͓̣̯̘̫̼̯̠̺̻̰̲̖ͣ̌ͭ͒̌̂̎͊ͅs͖̹̺̳̠̪̫̘̙̝̐̽͋̅͂͒̎ͅt͍̮̣̩͑͊̍͌̐e̺̣͈̰̰̜̳̻̠̪̩͔̩̲͉͙͕͂ͬ̏̒̎́ͥ̇̈̀ͨ̃͂̿̀̚

 

- yawning gap

[Finland3286]

7 hours ago, lmfao said:

@Finland3286 to explain and conceptualise non-duality is, for the most part, to sell snakes oil in the sense that reality isn't a concept. This is why discussing non-duality is such a pain. The problem of communicating is two fold. First of all, there is always a problem in putting your experience into words which you yourself can recognise. And second of all because non-dual experience are so unlike anything else, even after you have put something into words the same sentence will have a different meaning in different people's minds. What I mean is probably 99% different from what you think I mean. I'm using the word "meaning" to represent the sum of images, words, connotations, intuitions we have about something. These two points aside, the main point is that non-duality can't be conceptualised and so I'm created a paradox by typing this. To quote Alan Watts :

“There is a Zen poem that talks about ‘IT,’ meaning the mystical experience, satori, the realization that you are, as Jesus was, the eternal energy of the universe. The poem says, ‘You cannot catch hold of it, nor can you get rid of it. In not being able to get it, you get it. When you speak, it is silent. When you are silent, it speaks.’ "

And so when it comes to non-duality, focus on the consciousness work and read theory which encourages your awareness to be open minded about your entire experience. To not understand reality is sort of the point. 

Ok, I think I understand what you mean about the idea that the Non-Dual experience cannot be communicated through words. What i'm trying to get at here is if I have the right idea that as soon as I attach ones true self to anything that is not a constant presence that I have again failed to recognize ones true nature. I realize I failed when I tried to attach a feeling to myself and a sight as these are not constants. Also is enlightenment a direct experience with Non-Duality as you realize you are a constant? Is my ability to recognize that these ever changing things like feeling and sight are not me mean that I have the right idea or am on the right track about how to find out about ones true nature? Overall i'm wondering if i'm on the right track, i'm not trying to wonder about what the experience itself is like.

[yawning_]

@Feel Good

granted i don't know about any ongoing issues you perceive, and haven't read hardly any of the posts in the last few pages of this thread...

 

there's no "sweeping under the rug" going on here.  i am all in favor of conflict being resolved in a mature manner with open and constructive communication, and merely interjected in effort to keep the thread on topic.

 

that being said, i fail to see the constructive aspects in the communication from either side.  nor do i see the continuation (at least here in this thread) of this back and forth conjecture being held in the best interest of the community (or either party).

 

4 hours ago, yawning_ said:

ultimately there are no sides to take, its just a game of the judge and the victim the ego likes to play... 

assume neither part so we can not hinder progress...

 

3 hours ago, yawning_ said:

there is no need for opposition, or any identification with separation for that matter...

 

 

ṉ̰̼̯͍͉̲̫̠̤̺̹͖̟͆̓ͮͧͭ̓ͮ͊̈́̊̂́̇̂̾̔a̘͇̜̦̘̞̣͖̓͌ͥ̿̐ͬͮ̈́m͈̹̺̟͔̦̻͓̬͉̯͇̝͈̟̪͉ͬ̃ͦͩͣ̎̆͋̓͑͂̇ͯͨͩȧ͕̳̖̬͚̗̀ͤͤ̌͑ͤͦ̈́̎̂͌s̥͙̱̘̹̘͙̙͇̖̭͔̜͔̅͂̐̊ͪ͗̆͒̌͐ͮ́ṭ̙͎̝̼̠̪͔̩̱̼̣̼̺͙̭ͩ̔̎̏̐͐̅̃̓́͒͒̈̌̊̚e̦̞̻̲͕̋͋̒́ͮ͗̊͋̌ͦ̍͂͆͒̐͐ͤ́

 

- yawning gap

[Nahm]

@Joseph Maynor@Feel Good  Haven’t read any of this, but learning a lot here, and just wanted to say thank you to you guys. I hope you have a great day! 

[Jack River]

@SaumayaDoes tier one imply a person who identifies with thought and tier two not? What we talked about before. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jack River

[Saumaya]

9 minutes ago, Jack River said:

@SaumayaDoes tier one imply a person who identifies with thought and tier two not? What we talked about before. 

Stage blue is too authoritarian and compliant

Stage orange is materialistic

Stage green is inefficient in seeing the big picture

These stages might have awakenings but not enlightenment I guess. They are too preoccupied with the world to question the nature of themselves and reality

Only stage yellow is relativistic. Relativism will lead you to question relativism itset. If everything is relative, and each perspective is just a perspective. What is the one thing that is not relative. Stage yellow gives the proper maturity and base for enlightenment, setting up for stage turquoise

 

[Toby]

Just now, Saumaya said:

Only stage yellow is relativistic. Relativism will lead you to question relativism itset. If everything is relative, and each perspective is just a perspective. What is the one thing that is not relative.

I'm not an expert on spiral dynamics, but isn't that stage green?

[Jack River]

4 minutes ago, Saumaya said:

Stage blue is too authoritarian and compliant

Stage orange is materialistic

Stage green is inefficient in seeing the big picture

These stages might have awakenings but not enlightenment I guess. They are too preoccupied with the world to question the nature of themselves and reality

 

 

So the above is teir one being caught in identification with thought. Fear in movement. No ability to suspend pre judgement and can’t see the importants 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jack River

[Saumaya]

2 minutes ago, Toby said:

I'm not an expert on spiral dynamics, but isn't that stage green?

It's stage yellow. Stage green still thinks it's right

1 minute ago, Jack River said:

So the above is teir one being caught in identification with thought. Because everything dealing with thought is relative. 

Even yellow can be identified. The thing is, yellow sees it while the stages below cant

[Jack River]

Just now, Saumaya said:

Even yellow can be identified. The thing is, yellow sees it while the stages below cant

Yellow is aware of bias. Seems simple dudes 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, Toby said:

I'm not an expert on spiral dynamics, but isn't that stage green?

Stage green has cultural relativism 

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

cultural relativism 

What’s meant by this? 

[Toby]

Again, I'm not an expert and read the book like 4 years ago... but I thought yellow was the first stage that is integral but also sees hierarchy/holarchy while tier 1 usually doesn't. Just saying "every perspective is relative" doesn't really sound like inclusive of hierarchy. But I don't know, probably should reread it.

[Saumaya]

1 minute ago, Toby said:

Again, I'm not an expert and read the book like 4 years ago... but I thought yellow was the first stage that is integral but also sees hierarchy/holarchy while tier 1 usually doesn't. Just saying "every perspective is relative" doesn't really sound like inclusive of hierarchy. But I don't know, probably should reread it.

What's the contradiction? Relativism should lead you to see the hierarchy much more clearly

[Jack River]

@Toby @Saumaya

when we say relative or perspective this means view point from ones personal experience/thought right?

[Jack River]

Can freedom actually happen when every step we take is in the direction of non-freedom?

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jack River