I Can't Comprehend Non-Duality

[Toby]

13 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Ok.  What's your authority?  It's easy to allege.

What do you mean: Do you mean the "inner self" authority? Or do you mean "my" experience or lack thereof? Or do you want to have names of people where I get feedback from?

[Toby]

The thing is, I don't claim to be enlightened. But you claiming something like this. And because of this I wanted to know if you get feedback (because I'd recommend it from my own experience to anyone who has some kind of awakening). You said no or didn't want to answer. So that's it. Easy question, easy answer. No need for an argument.

[Sashaj]

48 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Ok.  What's your authority?  It's easy to allege.

Is he calling you crazy or are you paranoid? Are you crazy? How can anyone know. The real question is, are we having fun!?

[Sashaj]

@Joseph Maynor  but this is fun right? It’s a fun little game to play! All this online spirituality show haha. People on here are too serious sometimes, you included 

[Toby]

@Joseph Maynor what's your take on this?

 

[Saumaya]

7 hours ago, Toby said:

It's not about winning. It's a serious question because - even if there are no others or everyone is you or appears in / as you - feedback is really important. I'm not doubting that you've seen something, whatever it is; but imo it is even more important to get feedback because the mind has the tendency to go into delusions with it. Things one is unable to see for themselves.

If someone is guinely enlightened, they won't REALLY need any feedback to confirm their enlightenment. It doesn't work like that. Truth is truth. Once you fully grasp it, it's done

Edited September 7, 2018 by Saumaya

[Saumaya]

43 minutes ago, Feel Good said:

I call bs on that

 

Anyone who is enlightened will say the same, no feedback is required for enlightenment. To say you disagree with this fact is to say that enlightenment is not about truth realisation, but something else. You cannot undo truth realisation. I don't see anywhere, ken wilber, disagreeing with this fact in the video.

[metwinn]

On 9/6/2018 at 2:24 PM, Finland3286 said:

I was watching Leo's video about "What Is Spirituality?" and in the video he talks about Non-Duality and I don't think I really understand it. In the video Leo talks about how science has never proved you are a physical biological organism and that science has never proven you are your body. Leo also says that science cannot prove that you are not the table you are looking at. Also that science has never proven the idea of a separate self because the idea of a separate self is just an illusion. He then goes on to say that it is a conceptual creation. Leo also tells us to construct an experiment to see if you are separate from your coffee table. To this I would say that i'm not the table because I don't experience things through the table. I know this isn't scientific but this is my line of thinking because I think i'm me because I experience things through my body. I perceive myself as being my experiences and the mind stores these experiences making me who I am and a table cannot do this. On the other hand I have had thoughts about dreams and Non-Duality.

To put it simply, You cannot be what you are aware of, how could you? Notice that the mind that these experiences are stored in, and the feelings you have, and the appearance of the coffee table all exist inside of this awareness, because it comes much prior to all of these things. There has never been anything that existed outside of this. What you call "the self" is just an idea, its just another piece of content that exists inside of this awareness (no awareness = no body). Any ideas you have inside of this awareness are just ideas and nothing more. Notice what comes first before everything. You have confused the witness with what is being witnessed.

[SoonHei]

10 minutes ago, metwinn said:

You have confused the witness with what is being witnessed.

love it

[Finland3286]

On 9/6/2018 at 3:26 PM, Leo Gura said:

@Finland3286 Watch my video: Guided Self Inquiry: Neti Neti Method.

You are a thought.

It is possible to stop thinking this thought. If you succeed in doing so, you will die. And that is nonduality. When you realize your birth was just an idea. What remains after your death is a nondual field of pure consciousness. You become the entire universe.

The truth is, you have always been the entire universe. But you've managed to convince yourself otherwise with stories.

Awakening is not an idea. And it is way more radical than lucid dreaming. It is a radical change in your perceptual system.

See all my videos about enlightenment. There is an enlightenment category on my website.

Ok, so I took Leo's advice about the Neti Neti method to find your true self. In the video Leo talks about how you must be a constant thing. I really didn't understand why you must be a constant at first and I began questioning why this must be the case. After thinking about it I think it's because if you thought you were the thought saying "I'm me here I am dummy!" that would not be you because you are not always present like Leo said. If this is the case then you would cease to exist as it is not a constant present thing (I hope this makes sense and I hope i'm on the right track here).

So if this would demonstrate that you must be a constant thing then anything that changes must not be you as that would not be a constant. As Leo says in the video things like sight and experience as well as feeling is not constant because they change so therefore they are not you. So essentially you are figuring out what you are through a process of elimination. At the end of the video Leo says that you should try right now and grasp what you are and I felt this kind of like throbbing feeling in my head. When this was occurring I also looked at my ceiling and I saw it warping and I was thinking to myself "Is this it?". Then Leo says that it's Ok if you did not have a direct experience with this as he said he has done thousands of hours of this work and only had one experience. Then I begin to think that well it probably didn't happen because if Leo only had one experience from his thousands of hours put into this practice then I probably did not find what is the true self. Then Leo says as long as you take this as an idea or belief you are back where you started. Leo goes onto say that if you practice this enough eventually your brain will just give up and stop associating the true self with the things that are not constants. Then I'm suddenly smacked in the face and I understand that me feeling the throbbing in my head and the warping of the ceiling is just an association and an attempt to grasp onto something which is not your true self as these are not constants. This was very eye opening for me. 

[sgn]

@Feel Good Thank you! Nailed it. Very good advice what you last wrote. But Joseph will you listen?

[Jack River]

You know I didn’t really expect the subtle attack when I signed up on the forum. I thought It would be a pretty unbiased atmosphere. Got to say it has been a little rough lately dudes. Has it always been day if the dog environment in the forum?reminds me of elementary school sometimes

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

@Jack River Deep down, it’s insecurity that drives defensiveness and personal attacks. It’s uncomfortable to look at.

[Jack River]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Deep down, it’s insecurity that drives defensiveness and personal attacks

Fear, defend, attack. You got it dude. 

 

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

It’s uncomfortable to look at.

Yeah man. Didn’t expect it here. It’s ok though. Maybe the unafraid will balance it out?

Edited September 8, 2018 by Jack River

[Moreira]

Id resume you in the easiest way to understand.

The relation subject-object you-this, this dual relation (duality) is a mental trick, a illusion like the mirages on the desert when you are thirsty.

When you overcome this mental effect by meditation or certaing drigs you realize that you are everything.

[Forestluv]

45 minutes ago, Jack River said:

 

Yeah man. Didn’t expect it here. It’s ok though. Maybe the unafraid will balance it out?

A lot of people that come here are suffering. Some come for relief, others come to act out and get attention, and others come to self actualize.

I hope the average consciousness on the forum is high enough to pull people up. Yet, sometimes I see more experienced members get triggered and engage in conflict with those less experienced. I’ve need to be aware, so I don’t do it.

There is work involved, yet without some fun people won’t stick around for the long haul.

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

A lot of people that come here are suffering. Some come for relief, others come to act out and get attention, and others come to self actualize.

I hope the average consciousness on the forum is high enough to pull people up. Yet, I sometimes I see more experienced members get triggered and engage in conflict with those less experienced. I’ve need to be aware, so I don’t do it.

There is work involved, yet without some fun people won’t stick around for the long haul.

I feel ya my man. I with you there?

[lmfao]

@Finland3286 to explain and conceptualise non-duality is, for the most part, to sell snakes oil in the sense that reality isn't a concept. This is why discussing non-duality is such a pain. The problem of communicating is two fold. First of all, there is always a problem in putting your experience into words which you yourself can recognise. And second of all because non-dual experience are so unlike anything else, even after you have put something into words the same sentence will have a different meaning in different people's minds. What I mean is probably 99% different from what you think I mean. I'm using the word "meaning" to represent the sum of images, words, connotations, intuitions we have about something. These two points aside, the main point is that non-duality can't be conceptualised and so I'm created a paradox by typing this. To quote Alan Watts :

“There is a Zen poem that talks about ‘IT,’ meaning the mystical experience, satori, the realization that you are, as Jesus was, the eternal energy of the universe. The poem says, ‘You cannot catch hold of it, nor can you get rid of it. In not being able to get it, you get it. When you speak, it is silent. When you are silent, it speaks.’ "

And so when it comes to non-duality, focus on the consciousness work and read theory which encourages your awareness to be open minded about your entire experience. To not understand reality is sort of the point. 

[Saumaya]

9 hours ago, Feel Good said:

There is only one truth realization, but it is subjective and can happen at any level development! 

Plus there are also shadow delusions to take care of. If you realize truth with a shadow delusion (which can be more complex at 2nd tier) you extend your shadow to infinity. You become one with your own bs.

So enlightenment is not one thing, it's a moving target, and it comes I  many shapes and forms.

You can be "enlightened" at blue and that will be your subjective reality. But you can also be "enlightened" at green and have a totally different experience.

I think what Joseph has done is had a few glimpses, but because he is at blue he has a ton of shadow issues and only comprehend his reality in black and white concrete operational ways.

 

Truth realisation is not subjective. Truth is impersonal. Absolute truth is not bound by personality structure. I agree that some shadow issues will still remain, as personality structure is transcended not removed.

Enlightenment can reduce your shadow issues, but it won't increase them. Enlightenment doesn't come in many shape or forms, again, to say that would be to say there are more than one absolute truths; that is ridiculous. It is personality structure which varies from person to person.

This is just my personal opinion, but I don't think tier 1 people can achieve proper enlightenment. Personality structure has to be mature enough to see it's falseness.

[Saumaya]

2 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

It took me a while to fully appreciate this video, but I get it now 100%.  The day you grok this video not just intellectually but theough keen Awareness with be a game-changer for you.

 

Never really got the whole point of the video. Maybe I still don't understand the meaning of the word untenable lol. Imo criticism in the end is meaningless, because, in the end it's dualistic. Sometimes, criticism is not the way to go, sometimes being right doesn't matter. It depends where criticism comes from, is it from a place of being right, or a place of expressing your ideas that could help somebody. As long as the content is challenged properly and in some cases criticism being constructive, it can lead to growth of both the parties.