So recently I tried to explain Stage Yellow to my Stage Orange friend...

[7thLetter]

Just thought this would be interesting to share, maybe to anyone who is thinking about trying to 'change' any friends or family around them.

So I've been friends with this guy for a couple years now, I met him through MLM or Network-Marketing, or a pyramid scheme, whatever you want to call it. At first we didn't talk much, but then some time flew by and we both quit the business. Then several months later, coincidentally I bumped into him at an RSD pickup seminar with RSD Todd as the guest speaker. Long story short we started gaming together for a while, then eventually I didn't go out as much because I didn't see the value in pickup anymore. During this time I've always been meditating and listening to all of Leo's videos. Since I stopped gaming, I haven't been hanging out with this friend as often. But then recently we linked up again and went out to the club for a couple nights. I've always had the idea of starting a podcast and needed someone to do it with me so I asked him. At first I thought he was only going to do one podcast with me talking about his pickup journey, but then we ended up talking about several personal development topics. My vision for the podcast was for me to pretty much talk about the things that Leo talks about but from my perspective. So I was a bit hesitant about starting the podcast with this friend of mine because I had a feeling he won't be open to the ideas that I wanted to talk about.

So we recorded a couple videos on basic personal development topics once a week with us just having a conversation on a topic, it was going pretty well. But then as the weeks went by my intuition kept telling me not to continue but we just continued anyways. Then one day, I mentioned big picture understanding and that I wanted to cover it in another video, so I did. And in that video on big picture understanding, I went really deep into it because that's the content that I wanted to have for our channel. But of course I asked him if he was ok with talking about deeper topics and he was like "yeah sure I'm down for anything." In the video I did my best to explain what I meant by big picture understanding but he didn't seem to get it. Then I kind of confused him even more by talking about Spiral Dynamics and the different stages on the model. I tried to make him understand it by giving him many examples of people who live with these certain paradigms, such as people in the pickup community or in MLM, in order for him to understand stage Orange. We went over a couple of these perspectives and later on I could see the disinterest in him so we didn't cover the whole entire model. I then asked him how he felt about the topic, and we ended the podcast a bit early. After the camera was shut off he started asking me so many questions like, "where did you get those paradigms from?" and then with all those questions, he then started to overreact. He started saying things like, "it sounds esoteric" "that stuff is toxic" "where is your research?" "it sounds ignorant" "that's the stuff RSD talks about, that's why I stopped watching them!" etc. I didn't argue with him and start throwing more ideas at him, but instead I just told him, "I knew you would act this way." and I also said, "whatever you think about an idea or any thing is based on your perspective." He agreed on that and told me he would stop judging. So at this point he calmed down and was open to feedback. I gave him some feedback and then I started packing my stuff and headed out.

At this point I already told him I couldn't do the videos anymore, mainly cause of other things. So we don't have the channel up anymore if anyone is wondering. I probably made a huge mistake of going from 0 to 100 by talking about a deeper topic but I just wanted to show him a different perspective because he just always seemed to have a very strong materialistic paradigm. But I knew I can't change someone in one day by giving them some fancy ideas. I've tried to change several friends in the past too with these ideas but it doesn't work so I've learned my lesson. Also I wouldn't say that I was trying to change him but it was mainly just to discuss deep interesting topics for the podcast/videos.

Edited September 6, 2018 by 7thLetter

[Kosmos]

It sounds like you have been growing and learning new things and wanted to share it with your friend. Both of those are beautiful.

Seems to me that there are a paradoxical things going on in your situation (and most situations), between accepting him as he is, and wanting to change him. Accepting his limits, and inspiring him to grow. (these exist within ourselves too, and in our actions).

In a way, it is predictable that he would respond in that way. You basically said to him "Here is a new hierarchy system I found! Not only have you not mastered the orange hierarchy, there are a bunch more to go after that, you are so unevolved that you don't even realize how unevolved you are. But I know, because I am more evolved than you."

Spiral dynamics is a growth hierarchy (not a dominance hierarchy or status hierarchy), but at orange he will still interpret it as a status hierarchy. He won't realize that it measures growing compassion and growth beyond the need for orange status.

Your interaction opened a door for him, AND it was also super insulting. If he is ready to grow it's might be an incredible gift, if he isn't ready to grow, it might be a painful idea that he has to reject. Both of those are true at the same time.

When you go to school, everyone knows "there are people above and below me in terms of education depth". As adults, we don't know this. We think everyone is equal, and in a way they are, while in a different way also not being.

Perhaps in a future society, the concept of "adult education" and "continual growth" will be so widespread that it will be self evident. In that case, it wouldn't be a shock to people, because from birth they will grow up in a society where it is self evident that people can process the world in completely different ways (including greater or lesser vertical depth), and such shocking news about ones own ignorance won't have to be delivered by a friend through a podcast, to a receiver who might not be ready for it and might not have the tools to do anything productive with it.

 

If you are growing, and you went through a major shift, perhaps you need to find new friends, new beliefs, new clothes, new hobbies, new ways of being a human.
Some of your old vehicles for those things might grow with you, and some won't. You can invite them along, just don't be surprised if they are unable to follow.

 

48 minutes ago, 7thLetter said:

 I just told him, "I knew you would act this way."

 

This might have been hard for him to deal with. You had a need (to share your new discoveries, or to interact with him more deeply, or for more authentic connection and interaction). He wasn't open to you telling him he was unevolved. Then you told him you knew in advance he was to unevolved to even realize how unevolved he is, despite you explaining it to him. You are so much more evolved than him, that you knew in advance that he would be too ignorant to understand your wisdom.

In my experience, when I have said things like that to people, it has been about me and my own issues. About me wanting to create a sense of certainty in myself "They rejected the idea, but that doesn't make it invalid... right? The idea and my connection to it are still valid right? ... screw it I need to assert it out loud to make sure it's real, if I say it, and they can't rebut it, then inside my head my idea's win and I don't have to be scared that they are wrong".

A lot of this is in the framing. You could also have said something like "Thankyou for listening to my ideas. They are new things I am experimenting with. I don't know if they are right, or how valid they will be. Please feel free to reject it if it doesn't make sense to you, or to point out things which you think I might be missing. I am really trying to learn and grow, and I want to share you with that. This all sounds so arrogant, but that isn't the place I'm coming from, actually as a friend and human I respect you so much that I'd like to either get your input and maybe change my own mind, or if there is value and truth in it, then to show you something beautiful I found and perhaps we can both grow from it."

 

However, it can be very hard to speak like that with someone who doesn't self reflect enough to process it. It might sound wishy washy to them, so maybe you saying "I knew you would react like that" also has a certain wisdom to it.

You tried. Good for you. I'd suggest reflecting on your motives for trying, and for interacting in the way you did, then reflect on how to better meet your needs in the future, perhaps that includes finding new friends who are on your level so you don't have to change them. That way, you can accept them the way they are.

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by Kosmos

[Leo Gura]

@7thLetter Stage Orange pickup people usually have no interest in deep intellectual topics. They want pussy and success, and hardly anything else computes in their mind.

"Bro, how is this Spiral Dynamics philosophy gonna help me get more money and pussy?"

When you tell him, "It won't", he'll lose interest.

RSD guys usually have a very bad case of Orange. Because that's the whole appeal of RSD. It's an Orange fly trap.

[YaMayka]

I don't know - I met some who love intellectual topics but might have a closed mind about certain things. They are usually more scientist types INTPs, like. They like to discuss but it is not easy to convince them. I don't think it is pussy and success only that drives them then. Unless it is an intellectual success to win the discussion.

[Leo Gura]

@YaMayka I was talking about guys who are into RSD pickup. That is a very specific type of toxic Orange person.

[YaMayka]

I din’t have the pleasure  so I will take your word for that.

[Leo Gura]

@YaMayka I am making a gross generalization of course. Some pickup guys are more evolved. But usually not by much.

[Eo Ea]

Leo, it's very funny how you say that stage orange wants success and girls since that is what my older 17-year-old brother is like. He is super stage orange and he hates your videos. He has had straight A's his whole life and he is chasing money and girls. His friendships are suffering as a result and I find him very annoying to talk to because of his ego.

[Leo Gura]

@Eo Ea Lol, of course.

I would bet good money he's an annoying libertarian too who thinks that gov'ment is robbing him at gun point.

[7thLetter]

@Kosmos  You're absolutely right, I gave him the cold harsh truths and he wasn't open to accepting it. I mentioned I already knew he wouldn't be open to it based on several conversations with him in the past and knowing what type of person he is, but I wanted to share it anyway. Also he has said a couple things in the past about me that has bothered me, that I felt the need to prove him wrong. Things that was said about my ideas, and how I read too many books and don't take any action. Really its just the assumptions that people make that really bother me. He also comes from a place of manipulation since he does sales and pickup, so he would always say things in a very condescending and manipulative way, but at the same time very subtle. And with all that, that kept giving me different video ideas in order to indirectly teach him another perspective and in order to correct those things in his psychology, in a sense. But then I often find it hard to be around him because of those things so that's why I decided to give up on the podcast.

And yeah I want more friends who have the same interests as me but its very difficult to find people like that. So these days I just do my own thing and I actually don't have anyone I can call my close friend these days, but I'm not upset I actually love my solitude.

21 hours ago, Kosmos said:

In my experience, when I have said things like that to people, it has been about me and my own issues. About me wanting to create a sense of certainty in myself "They rejected the idea, but that doesn't make it invalid... right? The idea and my connection to it are still valid right? ... screw it I need to assert it out loud to make sure it's real, if I say it, and they can't rebut it, then inside my head my idea's win and I don't have to be scared that they are wrong".

Reminds me of what was said between me and my friend in this same situation with the whole podcast topic and after he overreacted. My friend started saying things like, "How bout we let (Someone's name) listen to this podcast and see what he thinks?" I told him that we might get the same reaction because he could be at the same level of development as my friend. Then as a rhetorical question he said, "So we would get the same thing too if we uploaded it on Youtube? People will start hating on it." Then I told him even if a million people hated on it, that doesn't prove that its wrong. He did btw come to some realization that he being closed-minded in this situation.

[7thLetter]

@Leo Gura I sort of thought he would be at least a little bit open to it and find it somewhat interesting since there are several similarities between Stage Yellow and Orange but I guess not. I did listen to one of your videos with you warning your audience not to try to explain Yellow to a Stage Orange person though. Although it definitely wasn't a huge mistake for me because I've learned a lot through this, and I've learned a lot more about his perspective and my own perspective. Sometimes I have a hard time trying to figure out which side I lean towards more, Yellow or Orange? So it really taught me a lot to figure out where he comes from and sort of compare it to where I come from. He definitely seems to be a pure Orange to me. I just love how accurate the model is. Reality is just so complex that its amazing how there's already an explanation for a lot of human behavior out there.

By the way I'm not sure if you have been keeping up with RSD these days but I often feel like they are moving away from the stage Orange paradigm and moving towards something more evolved. Owen and Julien specifically have been talking about spirituality and more esoteric topics. I think Julien also has stopped teaching pickup and focuses more on teaching and improving the inner psychology of human beings. Which funny enough, caused my pure Orange pickup friend to stop watching RSD.

Edited September 7, 2018 by 7thLetter

[Leo Gura]

@7thLetter They will have a hell of hard time evolving RSD beyond Orange because that has been their base for over 10 years. Their base may revolt and who knows if Owen will be willing to accept that.

I have heard RSD instructors refer to the RSD inner circle as "North Korea". So I would not hold my breath.

Before I started Actualized back in 2013 I approached Owen to maybe work together, but I saw that he was just not willing to grow beyond the sex and pickup as fast as I wanted so I decided to do my own thing. My vision was RSD minus the pussy chasing and materialism. Actualized.org is what I wished RSD was but wasn't. So I created it.

[7thLetter]

@Leo Gura Hmm I definitely can see that RSD as a community will have a tough time evolving beyond Orange but personally I think that the individual instructors could evolve past Orange themselves and leave RSD to do their own thing possibly.

Actualized.org definitely became something a lot more extraordinary than what RSD is 

 

[thehero]

@Leo Gura which was crazy because I asked Owen in a livestream a long time ago and he said he wanted to work with you. this was over a year ago tho

[Joel3102]

Even now lots of pickup bros shittalk RSD for becoming too “woo woo” and day they need to return to hardcore PUA advice more