so Leo is pretty convinced that he's enlightened

[Tetcher]

From the way you behave and speak I take it that you consider yourself enlightened. In your framework you got 'enlightenement experiences' and keep having them so that's well enough, intellectualy you know your true nature from the memory you have of your experiences. Now it's all about the 'embodiement' and trying to carry the experience longer.

But something tells me that's not it. You don't exude the same vibe as Martin Ball, you seem restless, still seeking.

Zenkei Shibayama (1894-1974), overseer of the large Rinzai Zen Nanzen-ji branch of temples, once related: “There is a common saying [in Japanese Zen], “Miso (bean paste) with the smell of miso is not good miso. Enlightenment with the smell of enlightenment is not the real enlightenment.”

Not sure what it tells about me that I feel the need to post this tho.

[Nahm]

@Tetcher If I may offer a view, pointing at the variance between advice of unenlightened not giving advice, and giving advice and declaring one’s self unenlightened, points at your current predicament. 

So, what are you holding onto? What ‘triggers’ you? What do you seek to attain? What is fear, to you?  What repeating thought patterns of past & future, take you from now ? Let’s take a look, and uncover freedom. ?

[Leo Gura]

I am not enlightened nor have I claimed to be.

[Shadowraix]

Full and total enlightenment would be like all of your restrictions to the consciousness and intelligence of the mind that you are, being stripped away and having full and total access.

[aurum]

8 hours ago, Tetcher said:

Not sure what it tells about me that I feel the need to post this tho.

Distraction from doing your own work.

[Tetcher]

On 9/5/2018 at 1:07 AM, Leo Gura said:

I am not enlightened nor have I claimed to be.

Would you say that Martin Ball is enlightened ? What did he manage to do/stop doing that you didn't yet ?

___________________________________

THE TRULY WISE OLD MONK
A young Zen monk was recognized by his teacher as having experienced an initial breakthrough enlightenment (Japanese: satori, kensho). His teacher then told the young man that, for realizing complete, irreversible enlightenment (Sanskrit: anuttara-samyak-sambodhi), he would need to study under a certain wise old master whose small temple was situated in another part of the country. And so the young man set off to meet the old master. After several weeks of travel, he finally arrived at the remote temple. The sentry told him that all the other monks were meditating or working at their daily chores, and sent the young man straightaway to the shrine hall to meet the venerable master.

Entering the shrine hall, the young monk espied an old man doing repeated prostrations to a simple statue of the Buddha, softly chanting the name of Buddha Amida (who saves all sentient beings from suffering). The young man was shocked. Having realized from his teacher the basic truth that the Self or Buddha-nature is formless openness-emptiness, utterly transcendent and all-pervasive, he was a bit disturbed to see the old man apparently still caught up in such “dualistic” practices—ritually bowing to an idol and chanting with devotion to a mythical Buddha.

And so he came up to the aged monk, introduced himself, and, from his “truly enlightened” perspective, proceeded to lecture the old man on the futility and stupidity of worshiping mere forms. Finally, his brief rant over, he realized that, having traveled such a long way to meet the “master,” he should probably ask the old monk for whatever wisdom he had to share. “So, old man, what can you tell me about full enlightenment?”

In response, the master smiled, said nothing, and resumed sincerely bowing in gratitude before the statue of the Buddha, gently invoking the Name of Amida on behalf of all beings….

And, in a flash, the young man fully understood the way of complete spirituality, and he, too, spontaneously began to bow to the Buddha, right alongside the old master.

 

 

[Joseph Maynor]

I’m not saying this applies to Leo, it’s just a general statement: I take it that most people do not really want Enlightenment.  That would mean they would have to give up Ego.  Most people seem to prefer staying in the Spiritual Ego zone where they try to have it both ways — a little Enlightenment mixed with a little Ego.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Forestluv]

14 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Most people seem to prefer staying in the Spiritual Ego zone where they try to have it both ways — a little Enlightenment mixed with a little Ego.

That's been my experience as well. Going all the way and fully surrendering the self is no small feat. That means anything could happen. You may quit your job and move to a village in a third world country, you may leave your family and children, you may become homeless, you may become insane, you may end up in a mental institution, you may become ostracized by the community. Very very few people are willing to fully surrender and open up all possibilities: in part, because they fear the "negative" outcomes. I've never met anyone that went all they way. The nice thing about psychedelics is you can temporarily experience full surrender and full ego-death.

One thing I'm working on is attachment to beliefs and thoughts. Sometimes, I get the sense that thoughts in my head are "more right" than other people's thoughts. Even the thought in this thread that "most people want a little Enlightenment mixed with a little Ego". I can still sense a little bit of identification - that this thought is "more right" than the thought that "most people want full enlightenment and to surrender the ego".

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Tetcher said:

Would you say that Martin Ball is enlightened ? What did he manage to do/stop doing that you didn't yet ?

I've questioned him extensively about it and to me it seems that YES he is.

He has abiding nondual awareness and loss of distinction between self/other.

On 5-MeO you can clearly see when you are enlightened and when you are not.

[Key Elements]

The thing I noticed is, it's very hard to tell where someone is at on their spiritual path, whether or not they're enlightened. Does it really matter to you? Why would it? It's a very personal journey. It probably takes a fully enlightened, articulate Zen Master who understands and is not biased at all to give you good insights into where you're at, if you tell him or her the full details. It probably takes time to earn the trust of someone like that because why would he/she want to unnecessary go into debate or over questioning with you? That doesn't help in the learning process and path. 

[Joseph Maynor]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I've questioned him extensively about it and to me it seems that YES he is.

He has abiding nondual awareness and loss of distinction between self/other.

On 5-MeO you can clearly see when you are enlightened and when you are not.

Not to be rude, but this got caught in my ‘question more’ filter.  How could you spot Enlightenment in someone else If you expressly claim not to be Enlightened yourself?  That doesn’t make any sense.  You would only know what Enlightenment is if you were Enlightened yourself.  How would you know what to look for in your assessment of Martin’s Enlightenment without the requisite relation to your own Enlightenment?  A guess is fine, but let’s identify it as such.  The theory you quoted would only make sense if you derived it or generated it from your own experience.  Enlightenment is not a theory or a conceptual test that can be applied externally like some kind of scientific diagnosis.  The only thing you really know about Enlightenment is your own, and that has nothing to do with any hearsay theory.  It would only be a ‘he’s like me’ kind of comparison that could be legit, right.  You can only truly know Enlightenment from your own perspective of being Enlightened yourself.  Enlightenment, unlike science, is unique in its resistance to being known through principles a.k.a. Thought.  From the perspective of Enlightenment, Thought is an illusion and part of Maya.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Forestluv]

@Outer It goes deeper. Not just having no thought/belief during meditation (knowing full well that I can stop the meditation and have thoughts/beliefs again). Imagine having no thought/belief and being powerless to stop it. This isn't just a meditation exercise that one can stop. This will go on forever. No thought, no belief - forever. It can be absolutely terrifying and absolutely liberating.

[SOUL]

"Enlightenment" is a carrot in the mind that people put on the end of their spiritual stick.

Cease self suffering by using that stick for walking the awakened path and just eat the carrot.

[Joseph Maynor]

Am I the only person who thinks the phrase ‘persistent non-dual Awareness’ is meaningless?  Think about it.  Forget about the 'persistent' modifier for a moment.  What does ‘non-dual awareness’ mean?  What does ‘dual awareness’ mean?  Yet almost everybody now is parroting these exact same words as if they mean something about Enlightenment, which at the end of the day means they mean something about your Enlightenment.  

Edited September 15, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Forestluv]

30 minutes ago, Outer said:

There won't ever be a  thought which will think about the no thought state too (obviously).

However, there will be truth though. That's comforting.

For some reason the image of a Native American comes to mind, just sitting on a large field, like where they used to hunt buffalos, no thoughts and then some buddies come over and tell the native to come and he goes. Maybe when we've moved away from smaller tribal communities it has influenced how many thoughts we have. Listening and talking needs no thought.

Very nice.

The other day I was contemplating "What is a thought?" and "From where does a thought arise?". I realized that other people place thoughts in my mind and I place thoughts into other minds (from a dualistic perpective). For example, every time I send a text, I am placing a thought/image into the recipients mind. Wow!! Then I thought about what types of thoughts would I like to offer to other minds? What type of thoughts do I like to receive?  

[SOUL]

What are thoughts? Sensations in the mind by way of the brain's activity. So when we stub our toe or if our stomach aches in hunger that sensation doesn't actually happen in the toe or stomach, it happens in the mind. When we see or smell or hear, it doesn't happen in the eyes, nose or ears, it happens in the mind.

Imagery, memory, emotions, inner dialog, sense of self, ideology and the product of the senses all happen in the mind. Yes, the rest of the body interacts with our environment, it has stimulus responses, biological processes and chemical reactions that contribute to what eventually results in sensations in the mind that culminates in us being aware of it.

So what are thoughts? Sensations in the mind. No thoughts? Hmmmmm....... carrot..... stick....

[abrakamowse]

16 minutes ago, SOUL said:

So what are thoughts? Sensations in the mind. No thoughts? Hmmmmm....... carrot..... stick....

That's what they are! The brain is just a "receptor"... we don't think, we just perceive the thoughts that are in tune with our spiritual level. But that's just a thought, so... hehehe... the only thing that I am 100% sure is that I am aware of thoughts. But I am not the thinker.

[Strikr]

you do not perceive word/modele in a "conscious".

you perceive the sense that you linked about those concept, anchored by the word/modele himself.

when I was a child I could laugh about slave and hitler and feel really good inside. And I still don't cringe when I use the word Hitler.

But I wasn't aware that my jokes about Hitler triggered people a bad feeling.

Because word =/= the meaning energy people give to them.
 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Strikr

[dorg]

As far as I can see, a thing (any thing) is a thought.

[DarkestLight]

Look, in the end what's important is your own journey. Am I wrong? It appears to me that you are seeking a conclusion, not greater understanding. At any point, take the advice that you take, and don't take the advice you don't take. That's within your freedom. You can also seek to understand the reason he behaves or may think a certain way, and if you have better advice, offer but don't force it. Enlightenment isn't a race. You'll end up where you'll end up. Call it the chain of causality, call it fate, the logos, the label doesn't matter (At least that's how it appears) If you stay at a healthy stage your whole life, ask yourself if there's really anything incorrect about that. It's not comparing who's consciousness is bigger (Lmao) We're pretty much all learning and figuring stuff out here