The "OTHER"ing Problem and Being Unwise with Paradigm Choice

[Emerald]

There's a very disturbing trend happening in society where gullible and ignorant people are being sold on "OTHER"ing propaganda en masse. 

People are getting swept up in ideologies of hatred and "OTHER"ness that I can only see leading to terrible destructive things. 

And there are people on this forum who are twisting non-dual truths to bolster their own beliefs in this regard. And there are people on this forum who are not sold on this propaganda, but habitually defer to non-dual truths as a reason to accept it as equally valid to beliefs that are not of an exclusionary nature. This is spiritual bypassing.

This muddying of spiritual perspectives and practical perspectives is causing a LOT of problems. Paradigms are mutually exclusive and you shouldn't try to put your feet in two paradigms at a time. So, if you're talking from two different perspectives, then makes sure you're talking from them one at a time, and not mixing them together and distorting them to fit your views. 

So, I want to point to this danger of spiritual bypassing and thinking that the only valid perspective is the non-dual perspective. There are practical perspectives that are often even more applicable to life than higher spiritual perspectives. In fact, that's the case most of the time.

For example, if your task is to chop wood and carry water, than you won't be able to defer to some higher spiritual truth to get the job done. The practical truth is that you must do it. 

Or if you see something harmful coming down the pipe, then you won't be able to defer to some higher spiritual truth to avoid it. The practical truth is that you must continue to call a spade a spade and never waiver to harmful ideologies. 

[Key Elements]

51 minutes ago, Emerald said:

For example, if your task is to chop wood and carry water, than you won't be able to defer to some higher spiritual truth to get the job done. The practical truth is that you must do it. 

I agree. It's better for most ppl to go for the practical truth. I said this in different ways, including using this metaphoric story:

The Stone Cutter

There was once a stone cutter who cuts stones for a living but wasn't happy with his occupation. He worked in the hot baking sun. He looked up at the sun one day and said, "Look how magnificent and powerful the sun is! It can just sit there burning anything."

On his next life he became the proud sun and just freely extended his rays everywhere. Then he saw something quickly approach him, and that was a large cloud that just covered him up. "Ah man!" he cried, "now I can't extend my sun rays anywhere. I wish I'm as powerful as a cloud."

On his next life he became a quick moving cloud that covered the sun and poured rain everywhere. He was freely going anywhere he wished until he bumped into a tall mountain. "Now I understand that mountains are the most powerful! They can block anything! Nothing gets in their way! I wish that I'm a powerful tall mountain!"

His wish was granted on his next life. He became a powerful tall mountain and just stood there proudly. "What can be more satisfying than to live long and strong as a mountain! Even the people paint pictures of me and think I'm beautiful and majestic." He stood there for years smiling. Until one day, he overheard that the people were trying to build train tracks and he was blocking the path. The mountain thought proudly that nothing can happen to him until a stone cutter came along and started drilling him

I heard that if you actually experience the ultimate truth, there will be also literal changes to your external environment for indications. Otherwise, how else will you be convinced that you've experienced the ultimate truth? No one can tell you about it. It's recognized. Also, other factors count such as your contributions. There is such thing as karma. Non-duality isn't the only factor. Otherwise, this earth realm wouldn't exist as a "realm."

[Arkandeus]

disturbing, harmful, lots of problems, twisting, danger, calling people ignorant and gullible speak

although the very core of your intentions are loving, by doing so you share us with is your innerscape, and it shows

 

first I want to say that it is very kind of you to reach out, that is wonderful, I have personally visited your channel and your presence on video is very loving, it is nice

 

I will share this, non-duality or I personally prefer unity, is all-encompassing, it is non-dual on the level of beliefs as well

the truth of unity, takes in its belly all beliefs, including the belief of duality, that belief is a part of non-duality

everyone is on the right path, we are all doing incredibly fine!

 

there is harmony with all that is, with everyone and with every belief, for all is united in every fiber of life

you cannot tell someone that they are doing bad, you cannot tell someone that they are wrong, only harmony leads to harmony

non-duality, unity, shows that all will come to harmony within, all the barriers fade, and all the different songs are tuned to each other

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Arkandeus

[Key Elements]

@Emerald Also, I think when doing the life purpose, it's best to tell the ultimate truth as indirectly as possible. It's unhealthy for the seeking to have so much attachments to it.

"The truth isn't told; it's recognized." -a spiritual teacher

If you incorporate the ultimate truth into real life, it will look like this:

[Haumea2018]

Quote

There's a very disturbing trend happening in society where gullible and ignorant people are being sold on "OTHER"ing propaganda en masse. 

Yes, there is, but do you only notice it on one side of the conflict, or on both sides?

Is all that stuff about "practicality" just your way of saying "I'm right, listen to me"?

I hope not, because that would be easily exposed.

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Emerald]

@Key Elements @Arkandeus

Ideally speaking, I don't judge those people as invalid by calling them ignorant or gullible. I call them that because they are ignorant and/or gullible. I am simply calling a spade a spade. They are not that way on purpose as no one would consciously choose ignorance or gullibility if they realized that they were being gullible or ignorant. 

Life is hard, and people are vulnerable. So, anyone can end up in a situation like that with so many blind-spots. I plainly see how I could have ended up in the same trap. So, understand that this is not a condemnation of those people. It's a recognition that if their viewpoints take a foothold in society, we will be facing some very negative consequences. And when those consequences arise, 'top shelf' spiritual truths believed at the level of intellect simply won't suffice.

Saying 'all is one' in the face of no danger makes us feel like we've already transcended. But in saying 'all is one' in the face of danger, we will realize that most of us didn't actually realize that... we just believed it. And an intellectual belief about the Truth is NOT the Truth.

So, for the sake of all those not directly abiding in the non-dual state, we should care about what takes a foothold in our societies. We should care about the goings-on within the dualistic perspective. If it our intention to lessen our own suffering by abiding in the non-dual state, then we should also care about the well-being within duality as this is also a part of ourselves. 

It's important to realize that sometimes 'top-shelf' spiritual truths taken at an intellectual level, will cause us to miss out on and repress away so many relative truths. But those relative truths are also valid from certain perspectives. And seeing relative truths as invalid and inherently less appropriate in ALL situations will cause us to make very foolish decisions in the sphere of duality. And it will set us ever further away from what is Truth.

Everyday life is not to be transcended and invalidated as a lesser perspective. Duality is also part of non-duality. 

Be wise with your paradigm choices in any given situation. 

 

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

Yes, there is, but do you only notice it on one side of the conflict, or on both sides?

Is all that stuff about "practicality" just your way of saying "I'm right, listen to me"?

 

One side of that conflict is all about OTHERing anyone who isn't in their in-group. The other side of that conflict is about OTHERing anyone who engages in OTHERing so that they can stop them from OTHERing. 

So, there is a problem on both sides, because we're not looking at the deeper patterns that feed into this problem where things can actually be resolved. One side demonizes everyone who isn't in their in-groupl And the other side demonizes everyone who demonizes those who aren't in their in-group. 

But make no mistake, both sides are not equal in this as both sides are not advocating for the same things. It's not always the case that if you have two sides to some issue that both sides are equally right or both sides are equally wrong. This is called false equivalency. Sometimes, one side is demonstrably worse if we look at the effects that it has on society. 

[Haumea2018]

Quote

One side of that conflict is all about OTHERing anyone who isn't in their in-group. The other side of that conflict is about OTHERing anyone who engages in OTHERing so that they can stop them from OTHERing. 

That's a great narrative that requires complete denial of a spate of attacks not on the side that "others," but basically on majority identities en masse. 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Key Elements]

57 minutes ago, Emerald said:

@Key Elements @Arkandeus

Ideally speaking, I don't judge those people as invalid by calling them ignorant or gullible. I call them that because they are ignorant and/or gullible. I am simply calling a spade a spade. They are not that way on purpose as no one would consciously choose ignorance or gullibility if they realized that they were being gullible or ignorant. 

Life is hard, and people are vulnerable. So, anyone can end up in a situation like that with so many blind-spots. I plainly see how I could have ended up in the same trap. So, understand that this is not a condemnation of those people. It's a recognition that if their viewpoints take a foothold in society, we will be facing some very negative consequences. And when those consequences arise, 'top shelf' spiritual truths believed at the level of intellect simply won't suffice.

Saying 'all is one' in the face of no danger makes us feel like we've already transcended. But in saying 'all is one' in the face of danger, we will realize that most of us didn't actually realize that... we just believed it. And an intellectual belief about the Truth is NOT the Truth.

So, for the sake of all those not directly abiding in the non-dual state, we should care about what takes a foothold in our societies. We should care about the goings-on within the dualistic perspective. If it our intention to lessen our own suffering by abiding in the non-dual state, then we should also care about the well-being within duality as this is also a part of ourselves. 

It's important to realize that sometimes 'top-shelf' spiritual truths taken at an intellectual level, will cause us to miss out on and repress away so many relative truths. But those relative truths are also valid from certain perspectives. And seeing relative truths as invalid and inherently less appropriate in ALL situations will cause us to make very foolish decisions in the sphere of duality. And it will set us ever further away from what is Truth.

Everyday life is not to be transcended and invalidated as a lesser perspective. Duality is also part of non-duality. 

Be wise with your paradigm choices in any given situation. 

 

Emerald, I agree more or less with everything you said here. I get it.

Let me add, be careful with how you point out the truth because ppl usually look at the finger. Yes, they misinterpret it in their own ways and it sends them off on a tangent. Presentation of the pointer must be excellent. You can't just let it out.

[Emerald]

13 minutes ago, Feel Good said:

Can you share some concrete examples please?

I made this in response to the thread that was all about seeing the validity in so-called "Identitarian" movements like White Nationalism. And it seemed like almost everyone in the thread was going along with it and using non-duality to justify their beliefs or to see those viewpoints as equal to any other viewpoint.

Now, from the non-dual perspective, it's true that all is one thing. But from the dualistic perspective, there's a huge difference in living in a society that value fairness, as opposed to a society that values one race over all others. And there are very real consequences to living in a society that values the latter. And it's just unwise to allow those kinds of viewpoints to proliferate unchecked.

There has also been quite a lot of subtle acceptance toward more extremist views trickling into the main-stream in general, and this forum has been no exception. The only difference is that they use non-duality as an ideology to justify these viewpoints. 

So, that's why I think it's so important to not become gullible in our seeking for higher Truth. Too many people think that higher truths invalidate more practical truths, but it isn't the case. 

[Haumea2018]

http://thefederalist.com/2016/05/23/how-anti-white-rhetoric-is-fueling-white-nationalism/

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

Emerald, I agree more or less with everything you said here. I get it.

Let me add, be careful with how you point out the truth because ppl usually look at the finger. Yes, they misinterpret it in their own ways and it sends them off on a tangent. Presentation of the pointer must be excellent. You can't just let it out.

I think it's important to be direct in this matter. People are already drowning in puddles of nuance, and those with most extreme views are using that to their advantage. Because people are not on firm ground, they are easily shifted toward more extreme viewpoints without really noticing what's going on. 

So, letting it out, in this circumstance is the wisest decision.

I think it was George Orwell who stated, "We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men."

People should not lose sight of the most obvious of truths, because they've gotten lost in a sea of nuance. This is what is meant by missing the forest for the trees. 

[Key Elements]

40 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I think it's important to be direct in this matter. People are already drowning in puddles of nuance, and those with most extreme views are using that to their advantage. Because people are not on firm ground, they are easily shifted toward more extreme viewpoints without really noticing what's going on. 

So, letting it out, in this circumstance is the wisest decision.

I think it was George Orwell who stated, "We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men."

People should not lose sight of the most obvious of truths, because they've gotten lost in a sea of nuance. This is what is meant by missing the forest for the trees. 

Ok. I get what you're saying here. But, we got to let out the practical truths first, like these:

"If you do what the other 'group' does, what's the difference between you and them? Nothing."

The problem is, ppl are too sluggish to even bother to look within and think deeply of what these mean. They just go for the quick fix thinking. You see?

Even practical truths are profound, and the mind can't be sluggish to understand them. You can't progress without passing practical truths.

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

Ok. I get what you're saying here. But, we got to let out the practical truths first, like these:

"If you do what the other 'group' does, what's the difference between you and them? Nothing."

The problem is, ppl are too sluggish to even bother to look within and think deeply of what these mean. They just go for the quick fix thinking. You see?

Even practical truths are profound, and the mind can't be sluggish to understand them. You can't progress without passing practical truths.

These are even kind of second tier practical truths. So, yes. It's a bad thing to judge others, which are really what these truths are getting at. I agree with these truths from this perspective.

That said, when people are already drowning in nuance, sometimes labels and 'telling it like it is' can be the most important thing to do. And reluctance to 'label' something for clearer understanding, comes from taking the truth of non-judgment too literally. It gets in the way of our ability for discernment and the ability to make wise decisions.

So, I agree that we shouldn't judge and invalidate even extreme racists, because they are truly victims to their own unconsciousness. So, if they really new better and were more conscious, they wouldn't be falling victim to these patterns. So, it's of utmost important that we recognize them more as a symptom of a deeper cause and victim of that symptom, as opposed to demonizing them and writing them off as simply being evil. Things are a lot more complex that they seem on the surface. And it's only in understanding those complexities that we can truly untie this knot.

But this is too nuanced to help people who may fall victim to this trap, which is the very reason why I made this post. In fact, this truth of non-judgment can be easily misconstrued by vulnerable people to make them more likely to fall into this trap.

If we are unable to label things for what they are, we will always remain on unsteady ground and will become ignorant to the most obvious of dualistic truths and will become gullible to those who seek to exploit this vulnerability. 

So, again, it's VERY important to be able to choose the proper paradigm for the situation at hand. Sometimes, the most obvious of dualistic relative truths are the wisest to go with. Sometimes, it'll be a paradigm that's middling like the non-judgment and non-labeling truth. And other times, higher up spiritual truths will be the most appropriate.

And it takes the cultivation of wisdom, correct perception, and discernment to choose the proper paradigm. This seems to be a skill that gets lost on this forum, as there are so many people who always default to the highest spiritual truths in every situation. Paradoxically, this is quite unwise.

[Haumea2018]

Quote

The problem is, ppl are too sluggish to even bother to look within and think deeply of what these mean. They just go for the quick fix thinking. You see?

People also don't like to imagine they could ever have contributed to the problem they're complaining about.  They are always innocent, well-intentioned and on the side of the angels.  The evil is always "out there."

This is why spirituality trumps "practicality." Shadow work isn't just some abstract concept; it's a personal necessity.

[Emerald]

19 minutes ago, Feel Good said:

Thanks Emerald. I've noticed this behaviour is commonplace on the forum so much so that I'm thinking about leaving. I can't take it seriously enough to make decent well thought out posts to voice my concerns because I will be written off as projecting or what not. 

There is a lot of invalidation of the most practical things. I think so many people want so much to progress on the spiritual path, that they lose sight of more obvious realities. So, it understandably can be quite frustrating. This is why I think taking a more integrative approach to spirituality is best. So, instead of only focusing toward formlessness and nothingness, there is also a respect for Earthliness and everything-ness. 

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

People also don't like to imagine they could ever have contributed to the problem they're complaining about.  They are always innocent, well-intentioned and on the side of the angels.  The evil is always "out there."

This is why spirituality trumps "practicality." Shadow work isn't just some abstract concept; it's a personal necessity.

Absolutely. It's all one huge social pattern that's a lot more complex than meets the eye. Right now, we're seeing a lot of upheaval because we are becoming more aware of that which has been relegated to the shadow of humanity. And it's ugly right now... but it will likely give way to more consciousness.

That said, if we can temper that effect so that it doesn't destroy so many people, we should. So, I will always try to make people aware through words before the world steps in with circumstance and really drives the point across. 

But practicality is also part of spirituality. So, to invalidate the practical and mundane is to become unaware of an aspect of the spiritual. So, the most spiritual people are often the most practical. It's very unwise to relegate all practical concerns to the shadow.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Emerald

[Leo Gura]

Yes, the problem is that many people who say "all is one" have not ACTUALIZED that statement in their own life. They've taken it on as a talking point. It is not true in their direct experience of life. So actually they are lying to themselves.

Doing spiritual work requires us to be honest about where we currently are. We have to stop and ask ourselves, "Is 'all is one' true for me?", and the answer will often be No.

If you are not enlightened, it is a bad idea to go around talking and acting as if you were.

If you have not directly experienced God, it is a bad idea to go around talking and thinking God exists. The truth is, for you, God does not exist.

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, the problem is that many people who say "all is one" have not ACTUALIZED that statement in their own life. They've taken it on as a talking point. It is not true in their direct experience of life. So actually they are lying to themselves.

Doing spiritual work requires us to be honest about where we currently are. We have to stop and ask ourselves, "Is all is one true for me?", and the answer will often be No.

If you are not enlightened, it is a bad idea to go around talking and acting as if you were.

Absolutely! Very well said.

[Emerald]

@Feel Good You're welcome.  It's easy to fall into traps when beliefs in anything always function as blindspots. So, spiritual beliefs and non-dual beliefs are no different. 

In fact, non-dual BELIEFs are a lot more blinding than even the average belief. This is because intellectually-speaking, non-dual truths seem to invalidate everything in the dualistic understanding of the world. 

So, if a person has adopted non-duality as ideology and not as a path, then all of reality will become a blindspot. And instead of the expansion of consciousness that comes from ego transcendence, there will be a contraction in consciousness that comes from ego repression and the ignoring of basic things about reality.