Spiral Dynamics Stage Green Examples Mega-Thread

[Brenzo2]

27 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

But should we act in such a manner, just to please young girls? Or my daughter if I had one?

If I had a daughter, then I would let her be sad... 

I don't think the intention would be to simply please young girls. I'm sure a lot of females have this kind of self esteem problem without finding these depictions unpleasant (although soee obviously do too). 

And secondly, I'm sure they're not feeling simply sad about it. I think it's far more complex than that. And letting your daughter just be sad about it probably won't solve anything. 

Also, some girls have self esteem issues and do not even feel an appropriate emotionsl towards it. 

27 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

 

 

[Ibn Sina]

9 minutes ago, Brenzo2 said:

And secondly, I'm sure they're not feeling simply sad about it. I think it's far more complex than that. And letting your daughter just be sad about it probably won't solve anything.

Neither will wiping out the ads. I have already given the examples how that is the case. My daughter would still be sad if she was born very ugly and in a world where there were no such depictions (except nature would still produce women beautiful then her). If she is 6/10 she will be sad. if she is 8/10 she will be sad. 9/10? Sad. Ads or no ads.

9 minutes ago, Brenzo2 said:

Also, some girls have self esteem issues and do not even feel an appropriate emotionsl towards it. 

So we should wipe out all the such ads? As I have said, that doesn't solve the problem. They have self esteem issues because they are not working towards having a better  self esteem. They have attached their worth in their attractiveness. It is their own thinking. Rather it is they who should change their mindset.

9 minutes ago, Brenzo2 said:

  39 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

But should we act in such a manner, just to please young girls? Or my daughter if I had one?

If I had a daughter, then I would let her be sad... 

You are misquoting me dude. That is not the message I am implying.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Leo Gura]

@Ibn Sina You are missing the point. The point is that society & culture is dominated by certain sets of values which please one group of people while marginalizing another, and so of course the marginalized group will seek to equalize this situation.

The problem she has is that women in video games are not depicted as women would depict themselves, but as objects for gratification for men. Which she views as unfair. And the reason this happens is because the video game developers are mostly young, immature men, so they depict women to please their own fantasies, not as women would depict themselves. If there were more women working in video games, video games would have a more fair and accurate depiction of women.

Anyhow, don't get lost in the details. This is a thread about Stage Green, not women or video games. The details are irrelevant. What's important is that you see the structural inequality that Green sees.

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They have attached their worth in their attractiveness. It is their own thinking. Rather it is they who should change their mindset.

You are blaming individuals while refusing to acknowledge the systemic and collective aspects of this issue.

Yes, self-esteem has an individual aspect, but it also has a collective and cultural aspect. Stage Green is about seeing collective aspects, which does not deny the individual aspects.

If you really care to understand this issue, read some books on feminism to understand why feminism is needed in some areas.

[mandyjw]

This is the point in the video that really matters for anyone who missed it. 

The reason so many young men are having so many issues attracting women or in relationships is partly because the entertainment that has been sold to them has encouraged them to think of women in a way that has only made it more difficult for them to relate to. Of course they have trouble talking to women, understanding them and attracting them. This type of thing hurts young men just as much as it does women. 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by mandyjw

[Ibn Sina]

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The point is that society & culture is dominated by certain sets of values which please one group of people while marginalizing another, and so of course the marginalized group will seek to equalize this situation.

So in this case the marginalized group is the women? In this case, how exactly? ( I am not talking about other things about male patriarchy bla bla).

Women can also do whatever they want about men. Who is stopping them from doing the same to men? Women can also reverse the situation. But who is preventing them?  What do you mean by 'society and culture is dominated', are you saying that women themselves (sometimes) are the cause of the downfall of women and will judge women if they try to sexualize men? (Give me a yes no answer, and ofcourse don't judge my character like- haven't you ever met a woman?).
The reason as you say it is 'unfair' is because women are not willing to sexualize men but men are  willing to sexualize women.

But why aren't they?

Is it because society will judge them?

But who is the society? Men + women or only men?

If men + women will judge them then you are saying that women themselves are restricting other women from being progressive.

If no, then the implication is something more dire.

Please give me a good explanation of- how it is unfair?'

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And the reason this happens is because the video game developers are mostly young, immature men, so they depict women to please their own fantasies, not as women would depict themselves. If there were more women working in video games, video games would have a more fair and accurate depiction of women.

My problem  is, what is  wrong with that?

Even if not  in video games, girls might get cat called in the streets  and  what  not, that's  the reality of being a female.

Yes, I like your point that, green is about being collective,

but gosh,

we can't get collective just to help the self esteem of others. We can get collective for a lot of things, like planting trees, making good  laws,

but not because girls feel bad because they aren't 10/10, the dream girl of every guy's fantasy.

And immature gamer men are sexaulizing them? So will half the world when the walk on the street. That's the reality.

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

So in this case the marginalized group is the women?

Yes

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In this case, how exactly? ( I am not talking about other things about male patriarchy bla bla).

This case is one example of what is meant by patriarchy.

As a basic example, many video games don't even allow the player to create a female character AT ALL! You are just forced to be male! And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

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Women can also do whatever they want about men. Who is stopping them from doing the same to men? Women can also reverse the situation.

Firstly, Green isn't seeking to replace one inequality with an opposite one. Green simply asks for equality.

Secondly, in a patriarchy, the whole point is that women CANNOT do whatever they want about men because women have been denied positions of power.

To make this example clear for you, women in Saudi Arabia cannot do whatever they want. Men actively prevent them.

But you will say that America is not Saudi Arabia. True, it's more subtle in America, but it still exists. You just don't notice it because you're male and it doesn't even register on your radar because it is irrelevant to your ego's survival.

[CreamCat]

@Leo Gura I like competition even when my dick is small and men in games have large dicks.

In terms of look, skill, money, etc, ..., I am infinitely outmatched by others. My mom constantly compares me with other guys who are making more money and dating diligent girls who make a lot of money. I am still okay with that.

You are talking to a wrong person.

There are certainly games that appeal to women, but I guess men pay more for games for now.

Edited November 26, 2019 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

@CreamCat You are still not getting it. This isn't about you.

Your logic is like this: "What's so bad about rape? I would love it if some girl sat in my lap. So what's the big deal?"

Stop looking at this from your POV.

[Ibn Sina]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Firstly, Green isn't seeking to replace one inequality with an opposite one. Green simply asks for equality.

Secondly, in a patriarchy, the whole point is that women CANNOT do whatever they want about men because women have been denied positions of power.

To make this example clear for you, women in Saudi Arabia cannot do whatever they want. Men actively prevent them.

But you will say that America is not Saudi Arabia. True, it's more subtle in America, but it still exists. You just don't notice it because you're male and it doesn't even register on your radar because it is irrelevant to your ego's surviva

Then tell me, who is exactly judging/ restricting women? Men or Men + women ?

What would happen if women started to do the same to men (and men also doing the same to women)? How will that affect the quality of life of women? ( Of course , I am here to learn. But I cannot fathom how anything bad can happen if she did that).

How is there patriarchy in things like art , gaming. She could still get into a company , do her job. I think that is where mainly patriarchy is confined too.

But what would happen if women started to do the same (and vice versa) ( I have no idea , and based on my experiences (of 21 years on earth) think nothinng will happen)

Educate me Leo.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[CreamCat]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Your logic is like this: "What's so bad about rape? I would love ii if some girl sat in my lap. So what's the big deal?"

I love murder, rape, gore, bullying, and all sorts of violence in art. I also loved executing random guys in manhunt game.

I still treat girls with respect in real life. I am gentle with them.

Even if you are a father who loves your baby and feels hurt when your baby hurts, you can still love drawing a devil who eats a baby.

I'm not particularly against women. I just love violence of all sorts including rape of all kinds(e.g., gay rape) in pieces of art.

It reminds me of total freedom.

Edited November 26, 2019 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Then tell me, who is exactly judging/ restricting women? Men or Men + women ?

It's complicated. The restrictions are systemic, cultural, psychological, and sociological. Both men and women are involved without being conscious of it.

It's a bit like racism or slavery. It's not the fault of any one person. It's a massive widespread systemic problem which everyone is in denial about.

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How is there patriarchy in things like art , gaming.

Go study some feminist works. They will gives you a million examples. Those videos are giving you examples but you don't want to take that POV seriously.

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She could still get into a company , do her job. I think that is where mainly patriarchy is confined too.

You have no idea how sexist game developers would act towards her.

No, it's not confined to that. It's cultural too.

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But what would happen if women started to reverse  the situation ( I have no idea , and based on my experiences (of 21 years on earth) think nothinng will happen)

Things would be more fair for future generations of women. Society would become more representative and less oppressive.

8 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

I love murder, rape, gore, bullying, and all sorts of violence in art. I also loved executing random guys in manhunt game.

I still treat girls with respect in real life. I am gentle with them.

Sigh... you are hopeless, so end of conversation with you. Go contemplate. Or don't. I don't care.

[Joel3102]

Gotta admit TJ Kirk's response is pretty funny

[CreamCat]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sigh... you are hopeless, so end of conversation with you. Go contemplate. Or don't. I don't care.

Don't be sad. I still want anita sarkeesian to do her best in her life unlike guys who sent death threats to her.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

unlike guys who sent death threats to her.

Sorta proves the point, don't it?

Ever wonder why guys send her so many death threats? Maybe there's some collective shadow there? Some self-deception at work? Something overlooked?

Almost sounds like some patriarchy might exist that doesn't take kindly to being questioned, hmmmmm....

[Ibn Sina]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Things would be more fair for future generations of women. Society would become more representative and less oppressive.

Exactly,

Now if women could get  such benefits, then -

 why don't women do the same to men?

Why don't women make games that sexualize  men too?

That is what I meant by - reversing the situation (has nothing to with oppression or representative as you said)Women also being sexual towards men, what exactly would happen? Bunch of womenin bikini comikng to you saying "Come, let's go to bed :)" or being sexually open in public.

Aha!

That's my point.

Women cannot act promiscous, women cannot sexualize men. 

My point is, nature itself has made it that way, if women get promiscous then it is they who are putting the axe on their own foot.

You said-

Feminism is not confined just to corporation, but to art also.

My point is, patriarchy in art  is something that women can do nothing about unless men themselves become geneousunless men themselves restrict their  freedom.

While feminism in corporations is a different game. If women are competent then they can lead ( if there was no feminism is what I am saying ( don't  say- but there isn't, I am not saying there is).

I am saying those are 2 different kinds, and I am saying in the latter, women have  to potential to rise.

But in the former case,  no they don't.  That is the distinction that I am making.

If women start to sexualize men, then it's like they are putting axe on their own foot.

And in that sense I am saying feminism is only confined to corporations. In that sense.

( Of course now don't say, don't you know women can also rape men bla bla).

My point is, when it comes to such sexual behaviour, women cannot do much to improve then saying 'Please don't  do this', and whether men stop doing it or not that's irrelevant, the reins of power in this regard is still in men's hand. Because nature itself has made it that way. And that is my point. 

My point is also, women have to deal with it, yes we should make efforts to bring change, but it's better if women just spend time on doing their work and becoming more competent instead of saying gamers or cat callers 'Please don't sexualize us'.

Personally I don't do any such things, I a guy who only teases girls once she is open to me, all I am saying is trying to do such activities like taking out art, wanting a ' a culture of no woman sexualizing' is difficult and a waste of time for  her and  us. It's not the same thing as slavery. It's a different animal altogether. And that's my point.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[remember]

yeah mh what are you focusing on playing the game - the ass or killing the enemy? who is the enemy - oh well i don`t care i just want to kill. take that but hole out of the way.

Edited November 26, 2019 by remember

[CreamCat]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Ever wonder why guys send her so many death threats? Maybe there some shadow there? Some self-deception at work? Something overlooked? Or is that something a healthy mind does?

Although it can be complex, it can be as simple as the fact that those guys are screwing up their own lives. People who are screwed up inside tend to screw up outside.

There are ways to respond to external reality without feeling the need to kill someone who doesn't pose a violent threat.

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Exactly,

 and my question is, why don't women do the same to men?

Why don't women make games that sexualize  men too?

That is what I meant by - reversing the situation. Women also being sexual towards men, what exactly would happen?

Aha!

That's my point.

Women cannot act promiscous, women cannot sexualize men. 

My point is, nature itself has made it that way, if women get promiscous then it is they who are putting the axe on their own foot.

Nature plays a role, but you underestimate the extent to which we construct culture and "nature".

You might as well be saying that nature made black people slaves, therefore no problem. Shut up and go back to work.

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My point is, when it comes to such sexual behaviour, women cannot do much to improve then saying 'Please don't  do this', and whether men stop doing it or not that's irrelevant, the reins of power in this regard is still in men's hand.

And all that black people could do was demand to be freed. And here we are.

And all that Gandhi did was demand that the British Empire give India its sovereignty and stop exploiting it.

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Because nature itself has made it that way. And that is my point. 

Nature is anything which occurs. So your point is moot. Feminism is as much "nature" as patriarchy is. So who's version of "nature" will prevail? That's what this whole debate is about.

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My point is also, women have to deal with it, yes we should make efforts to bring change, but it's better if women just spend time on doing their work and becoming more competent instead of saying gamers or cat callers 'Please don't sexualize us'.

That's your opinion, and obviously many feminists disagree.

Don't forget, both can be done at the same time.

Asking women to "shut up and become more competent" before you give them respect is the very injustice and patriarchy which is in question. Why should women have to work extra hard to please you? Who are you to tell them what is right and what they must do in order to be treated as they feel is fair?

Maybe when a person tells you that she is being treated unfairly you should take it seriously rather than telling her to work harder and be more competent? Just a crazy thought.

[Ibn Sina]

 

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Asking women to become "shut up and become more competent" before you given them respect is the very injustice and patriarchy which we in question

No one owes respect to anyone. That's the reality, that's my point. 

In one of your videos , may be in conscious politics, you discussed that every one would be slaves if there was no government. And here you are 100% right. So I am guessing you do have an idea about human nature.

But what you have to see is that slavery and 'giving respect to women'/ not sexualizing women are completely different things.

Slavery is more unnatural. 

It is the literal restriction of the will of a person to live.

But sexualizing women in games, cat calling? That cannot at all be compared to slavery. 

I know it is a bad, dark, low consciousness force, but it is still a natural freedom. It does not kill women like slavery, it is not a social evil.

But rather restricting freedom, since you are an american I don't have to emphasize, is an evil.

Don't compare AT ALL such things with slavery.

Yes, on natural impulse people also murder, on Lions eat deer,

but the main point is , to have wisdom to properly demarcate  the line.

You are drawing the lining on a much  higher, idealistic level, and so do communists, making it unhumanitarian.

While the line should be drawn lower, there should be a good balance between human freedom and chaos of nature. 

You cannot put too upward, or too downward.

It's like if Lion came to eat, would you say, hey lion please don't eat us? no.
Of course, I am not saying the natural impulses should overflow, but there should be a good balance.

That is where you and I differ. You are putting the line much higher.

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Maybe when a person tells you that she is being treated unfairly you should take it seriously rather than telling her to work harder and be more competent? Just a crazy thought

If she is being treated unfairly.

If she says- they are putting video games which are sexualizing women, I'll say- go back to work.

If she says- I am being underpaid, or harassed, raped, discriminated, I'll be there for her.

That's the line that I am talking about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[CreamCat]

@Ibn Sina Anything that happens is nature. Leo Gura is nature. You are nature. Seemingly unnatural things are also natural.