Spiral Dynamics Stage Green Examples Mega-Thread

[Key Elements]

3 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

If someone discovered they were conditioned with traditional views on monogamy and marraige that doesn’t feel right for them, I would support them in finding inner truth about their sexuality/gender. 

I do too. I find that many ppl are not conditioned like this now, not even in India, esp in the modern cities. That video clip on polyandry was from a small village in India. It does not represent the whole India--very far from it. Many arranged marriages there are by choice now, or they go out on their own to choose. It's not like the traditional arranged marriage where the bride and groom meet at the wedding on the first day, and have a 7 days wedding celebration. See, the problem with me saying such things is that no one will know what I'm talking about--not a single bit, unless they're from India or lived there for years. The total number of years I've spent there in my life is more than 13 yrs. How many languages do they speak there? Over 72. Do you see how diverse they are? Entering another state in India or even another city may sometimes feel like you've entered a different country. 

Let me share with you something else. I was working with this person. She's only 22 yrs old and from another country outside of India. After the first week of her stay, her roommate took her out to a bar, and she got a number from this guy. She showed me his picture, and you know what, right away I knew it wasn't going to work out between the two. I couldn't even say anything to her of how I could tell that he's from a different culture. I did not expect a guy like that to have transended his culture. If I told her, she'll think I'm judging. Internally, I felt pissed. I did not want her to get hurt--physically and mentally. To make a long story short, no it didn't work out, and yes it is because of the big differences in culture. I told her that the biggest reason it didn't work out is because she did not bother to know the environment and different cultures of ppl and mindsets in that city. Ppl do have different mindsets and Spiral Dynamics does apply. She said that her stay would have been very awesome but because of him, he ruined it. She was very stressed out most of the time.

[MrDmitriiV]

Here's a perfect video highlighting stage Green behavior: 

Notice the herd of stage Orange/Blue folks commenting the limits of their own mental systems.

Yes, they produce lots of waste (by building and re-building) but they express and embrace the system they're possessed by in what's probably the best way possible. Yes, they still serve their own egos under the disguise of "for the community" but it ain't worse then stage Orange.

For stage Yellow/Green folks, you can grasp lots of lessons from this video. Notice there are almost no black humans, which only proves the phenomena that the reason racism exists is because the vast majority of black humans are still in the inferior stages, like stage Red/Purple in Africa and Ghettos (Don Edward Beck's words). This is a reminder that stage Green solutions (like the Bill Gate's foundation) won't solve the core problems of stage Red/Purple, they should evolve first into Blue/Orange. 

Also, that's why banning the discussion of racism, is a stage Green failure out of many, which result in backlashes like in the video below: 

@Serotoninluv Do your best to ban this post as well.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2018 by MrDmitriiV

[Widdle Puppy]

Eh, I think this is a pretty poor understanding of the stages and a poor application of them on racism. 

 

[MrDmitriiV]

15 minutes ago, Widdle Puppy said:

Eh, I think this is a pretty poor understanding of the stages and a poor application of them on racism. 

 

What makes you think so?

Plainly sharing your opinion without backing it up with logic/reason/proof is a common ego backlash. 

Did you read the "Spiral Dynamics" book? 

[Key Elements]

@Serotoninluv hey, I thought of a simpler way of explaining all this. A person has to be very grounded in his or her values/boundaries. If a person wants a partner in marriage who is loyal, so be it, as long as they don't quit on each other in the lifetime. You got to be grounded in what you want. Otherwise, the person ends up exploring / chasing relationships--just like in stage orange there are excsses in chasing money and sex. 

And then after the relationship becomes stable, the couple becomes stable, less and less infatuated (honeymoon phase is over), more and more detached, and becomes best friends at least. The relationship continues growing throughout life. That's how it works with any relationships. Then, the relationship phase on Maslow's is over.

[Forestluv]

Healthy green is about inclusion and wellness for all. Unhealthy green is ideological. There is attachment to beliefs. A sense that my beliefs are right - not just for me, but for everyone. It becomes normative. There is often strong emotion and a desire to defend one’s belief’s. This leads to a contracted mindset which can become adversarial to protect one’s ideology. 

For those wanting to raise their consciousness, a good contemplation/inquiry question is “From where did this belief arise”? This can give a person *space* from their attachment to beliefs and insight into their own mind-body. What often blocks us from expanding consciousness is not so much WHAT the beliefs are, it is HOW the beliefs are held. 

[Key Elements]

I'm not talking about attachments to beliefs or anything like that. This has nothing to do with being ideological. I'm talking about the relationship phase being over--transending it. The chasing is over. It doesn't matter what type of relationship you're in--whether it's LGBT, polygamy/polyandry, polyamorous, marriage to your relatives, etc.

Another thing I want to point out, to transend relationships is, let's say a couple has been married for years, and all of a sudden the husband died when the wife is in her early 50s. The wife is free to choose to marry again. If she does, she would have to adjust to her new husband again in the marriage. That could be very challenging, esp at that age. However, if she chooses not to have any more relationships, she's free to do other high conscious work because she has time.

[Key Elements]

On 31/08/2018 at 5:52 PM, Serotoninluv said:

If someone discovered they were conditioned with traditional views on monogamy and marraige that doesn’t feel right for them, I would support them in finding inner truth about their sexuality/gender. 

Wait a minute...what you said here is very crucial.

How is it possible that you're going to help them? In what ways? Tell me. Most likely ppl are just going to help themselves. The reason why is because you don't understand their suffering. Unless you fully understand who they are, and you're willing go through the hell/suffering with them, then you could help them properly. 

Here's a simple example. You know two friends who you like hanging out with. They are awesome well settled ppl with great personalities. You think they would make the perfect couple so you tell them about this and introduce them. They start dating. They're happy in the beginning and become bf/gf. Later on, they fight like cats and dogs everyday and break up. Then, they never talk to each other again or you. 

The point is, if you try to help someone, it could end up hurting them a lot more.

[Forestluv]

6 hours ago, Key Elements said:

Wait a minute...what you said here is very crucial.

How is it possible that you're going to help them? In what ways? Tell me. Most likely ppl are just going to help themselves. The reason why is because you don't understand their suffering. Unless you fully understand who they are, and you're willing go through the hell/suffering with them, then you could help them properly. 

Here's a simple example. You know two friends who you like hanging out with. They are awesome well settled ppl with great personalities. You think they would make the perfect couple so you tell them about this and introduce them. They start dating. They're happy in the beginning and become bf/gf. Later on, they fight like cats and dogs everyday and break up. Then, they never talk to each other again or you. 

The point is, if you try to help someone, it could end up hurting them a lot more.

Whoops, my comments on ideology were directed toward the burning man video. I should have quoted that post.

You raise a really good question that I’ve contemplated a lot. I advise undergraduate students and I find it challenging. I often ask myself: “Am I guiding someone to discover their “true self” or am I steering someone toward what I think would be best for them?” (Even with good intentions).

For example, many students I advise are pre-med. Many have been conditioned to think they should be a doctor (e.g. pressure from parents). Many pre-med students have not contemplated what they want in life. What their life purpose is. Often, pre-med students have inner conflict. As their advisor, I strive to guide them to discover their life purpose, rather than steer them toward what path I think would be best for them. I may ask them about their passions, what they love to do. I may encourage them to contemplate their life purpose and to listen to something deep within - perhaps they could contemplate their values and the type of work environment they would prefer.

I don’t advise students that are questioning gender, since I’m not professionally trained in that area. Yet if it was a friend questioning their gender coming to me for advice, I would try to guide them toward discovering their personal “purpose” similar to above, rather than steer them toward what I thought was best.  I do have some experience in this area. I grew up in a fundamental catholic environment. I was raised on a simplistic either/or  binary gender system (male or female). As well, I was conditioned with a social construct for man/masculine and female/feminine. For example, I’ve always liked pastel colors, yet I was not allowed to wear pastel colors because they were too feminine and for girls. I struggled for a while with my own gender identity. I discovered that gender identity and sexual expression is much more complicated than a simple male or female binary system. 

[Taylor04]

Leo is an example of stage green. His analysis is distinctly fawning of green, and disliking of orange. He even ascribes some green attributes to yellow in his spiral dynamics video series, such as belief in warmism. (I suspect so he can pretend his greenness is a higher stage.) Belief in an invisible threat in the sky is tier 1 religion. Tier 2 is no longer superstitious. Yellow is NOT worried about its carbon footprint, because yellow has moved away from the psychological need for such beliefs. Green did not anticipate this (yellow) change, and thus leaves it out and pretends the rest of the spectrum subscribes to it because it is reality. Yellow understands the systemic solutions to for example environmental issues, and therefore does not support tier 1 social engineering. Green only understands social engineering, and therefore thinks all stages must be into it.

Greens tend to see orange as controlling everything, while in reality green has been the dominant meme in western culture for decades. It is typically green to overlook their own dominance, and see the last vestiges of orange power as evil right wingers running everything.

Also, it is typical for greens to not understand libertarianism and lump it in with "selfish" orange, as he does. Orange is not both capitalist AND libertarian. Orange is only capitalist, and yellow is libertarian. Greens dont understand that distinction because they lack the systemic thinking ability to understand why libertarianism isnt selfish, but just proposes solutions that rely on systemic effects they (the greens) cant understand.

And vegeterianism is green. Tier 2 is not malnourished.

Edit: And Leo's epistemology seems to be a (more reasonably articulated) version of stage green postmodernism.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Taylor04

[Key Elements]

@Serotoninluv hey, I've been reading up on polyamorous relationships. And, you know, I learned something new. Now, I see the difference between polyamorous and polygamist/polyandry. Thanks for all the info.

Tbh, I have nothing against any relationships. That's the bottom line. However, let's say I'm married. (Well, I am married.) And, I also have a bf. And, my husband knows about him but doesn't care. Ok then. Fine. However, imo, I'm not sure what is the purpose of having a bf along with being married. I mean, tbh, he may leave one day. Bfs, to my understanding, are not husbands. They are not permanent. Why spend so much time working out a relationship with him when I'm already married?

[Forestluv]

25 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

@Serotoninluv hey, I've been reading up on polyamorous relationships. And, you know, I learned something new. Now, I see the difference between polyamorous and polygamist/polyandry. Thanks for all the info.

Tbh, I have nothing against any relationships. That's the bottom line. However, let's say I'm married. (Well, I am married.) And, I also have a bf. And, my husband knows about him but doesn't care. Ok then. Fine. However, imo, I'm not sure what is the purpose of having a bf along with being married. I mean, tbh, he may leave one day. Bfs, to my understanding, are not husbands. They are not permanent. Why spend so much time working out a relationship with him when I'm already married?

I think I have a similar orientation. I'm more oriented to going deeper within a monogamous relationship, than multiple relationships. One of the hardest beliefs for me to overcome was that monogamy goes deeper with one person and poly is more surface level with multiple people.

My perspective from the poly community: each person has a type of energy, characteristics, a type of attraction. Yet no one person can contain all forms. Consider different friends. No one friend can contain all the features you like in friends. So we have multiple friends. Each friend has a different personality and type of energy that we enjoy. We love each friend. . . For example, a woman may like intellectual conversations with a brilliant scientist, yet also like the creative space a brilliant musician takes her. The scientist fills her intellectual wants, while the musician fills her creative wants. It's a very different place and experience with each man. They each bring out a certain part of her. She doesn't want to limit herself to one type of experience. Now add sexuality to the mix. Things like Intellect, creativity, emotion, physical, sexual transcend and merge to collectively form a type of energy. Once I let my guard down, I was able to experience this form of love. It was very different than anything I have experienced. It passed through me intermittently, yet I couldn't maintain it.

Overall, I see that healthy and unhealthy aspects exist in both monogamy and polyamory.

[Forestluv]

 

Here is an example of an ideological green vegan. Rather than view her as some "crazy bitch", see if you can view someone so empathetic to the suffering of others that she herself is suffering. One of the difficulties for the green stage is becoming extremely empathetic for those that are being oppressed or suffering. To the point it's crippling. I've had moments of being overcome with empathy - to the point I am internalizing and experiencing the pain and suffering of someone else. 

 

 

[Elisabeth]

2 hours ago, Key Elements said:

@Serotoninluv hey, I've been reading up on polyamorous relationships. And, you know, I learned something new. Now, I see the difference between polyamorous and polygamist/polyandry. Thanks for all the info.

Tbh, I have nothing against any relationships. That's the bottom line. However, let's say I'm married. (Well, I am married.) And, I also have a bf. And, my husband knows about him but doesn't care. Ok then. Fine. However, imo, I'm not sure what is the purpose of having a bf along with being married. I mean, tbh, he may leave one day. Bfs, to my understanding, are not husbands. They are not permanent. Why spend so much time working out a relationship with him when I'm already married?

@Key Elements There is a narative in monogamy that whenever a relationship ends, it has 'failed'. Polyamorous people tend to disagree and use other metrics to judge their relationships. Such as 'Overall, is this relationship making both people happy? Or, did we have a good time while it lasted? Did this relationship help me grow, become a better person? In this relationship, did I find what I was looking for?'

Someone subscribing to polyamory will often hold the view that relationships end for a number of reasons - life circumstances, preferences changing, people maturing and growing apart - and this is not necessarily bad. It's better to part ways amicably then stay in a dead relationship out of duty. Relationships are like encounters between people that come in all kinds - brief and surprising, or long and committed, life-changeably deep or just fun, calm or dramatic. Sometimes a person you only met once shows you a depth of intimacy that impacts you forever. Sometimes you find someone who's so deeply compatible they become your significant other.

Commitment isn't lacking in polyamorous relationships, but like many other things it's crafted to fit the people involved. People have to think about what they commit to. Honesty and openness? Just treating each other well this one evening? Staying in touch? Building a DS dynamics? Being there in a crisis? Emotional support? Sharing finances? Having children and being good co-parents? Never leaving? Informing each other about new partners? Sharing a spiritual path? These things don't necessarily come in a bundle. You have to negotiate. But, having multiple long-term partners usually takes more commitment then having one.

Polyamory has its deep problems, but relationships ending, according to some, isn't one of them. That's a fact of life. (Ok, you're free to remind me I said this when I'm dealing with heartbreak O:))

To answer your question directly, so why have a boyfriend if I already have a husband? There could be a number of reasons, including but not limited to: actually wanting to have two 'husbands' (and build a household with multiple adults - or not), a need for variety in my emotional life, a huge capacity for intimacy, kinks my husband doesn't share, falling in love unintentionally and not wanting to hold back (after all - we're drawn to people who force us to integrate our shadow side), enjoyment of having two very different in my life, a wish to gain experience and be a better lover, offering mentoring, a wish to explore various flavors of love and relating.

I find, mostly it's an enjoyment of relationship intimacy and a deep appreciation of another human being.

Is polyamory shallow, with all that selfish goals of satisfying your own needs for variety or even excitement? Well, often. But I feel, if people learn to love multiple, it also touches something profound. I don't quite have a name for it. At the very least, you learn how this thing called love isn't coming to you because of a specific person, but how it's your to own, cultivate and live.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Elisabeth

[Forestluv]

@Elisabeth Thank you for sharing your insights Elisabeth!

[Key Elements]

@Elisabeth Thanks for the info. It's informative.

My biggest question is, how does a person transend the relationship phase in polyamory?

So far, from my life experiences, it goes something like this for anyone, in any type of relationships, whether or not it's monogamy or any poly:

Strangers / acquaintances, friends / good friends, best friends / BFFs

Only the best friends and BFFs are permenant. I already put a link to the definition of what's a BFF in this thread. And, it's extremely rare to meet 3 BFFs in a lifetime. They usually come when you're older and matured. That's what I heard. These ppl could either be inside or outside your family.

What happens is, when the relationship becomes stable and adjusted, that's when permanence happens. See, if I'm in a polyamorous relationship, I wonder how long will I keep having impermanent relationships. Sure, I could keep tasting all the different flavors of the rainbow and have bfs after bfs while I'm married. But, there's a time in the life when a person has to move on. Continously having impermanent relationships is time consuming. Imagine spending time with a bf and breaking up and not feeling hurt at all and getting a new one and somewhat adjusting to that. And, this continues throughout life. I'm just painting a picture. I guess there's a point where I just decide to settle for one or none. It would be my choice.

 

[Forestluv]

@Key Elements To me, it seems like you are categorizing relationships. My mind doesn’t really work like that. For example, I was in a one year open relationship that went deeper and more intimate than an 11 year monogamous relationship I was in. Yet in some respects, the 11 year relationship was deeper and more intimate. 

 

[Key Elements]

45 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Key Elements To me, it seems like you are categorizing relationships. My mind doesn’t really work like that. For example, I was in a one year open relationship that went deeper and more intimate than an 11 year monogamous relationship I was in. Yet in some respects, the 11 year relationship was deeper and more intimate. 

 

No I'm not categorizing; it's just my way of explaining. How else am I going to explain it and ask questions?

I don't point fingers. I don't have issues with any type of relationships, not even marriage within family, which is considered to be the biggest taboo in the US.

[Forestluv]

@Key Elements

“Strangers / acquaintances, friends / good friends, best friends / BFFs”

This seems like categories to me. Or a linear continuum. I guess it makes casual conversation more convinient, yet when we dig deeper, it breaks down for me.

[Key Elements]

39 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Key Elements

“Strangers / acquaintances, friends / good friends, best friends / BFFs”

This seems like categories to me. Or a linear continuum. I guess it makes casual conversation more convinient, yet when we dig deeper, it breaks down for me.

Yes, exactly. I don't know how else to put it into words.