Value and Women

[Forestluv]

@Thanatos13 To me, it seems like you are attached to forms of “right” or “wrong” thinking. The thing is, you are both right and wrong. You just can’t see it. You are in conflict with others as to who is right or wrong. Usually, there is internal conflict as well. Many people get stuck in an intense right/wrong trap for years, even decades. I suffered in it for years before I was ready to let go. There is great peace and freedom with this direct experience.

That’s just my perspective. There are many other perspectives. Listen to your intuition and your authenticity- below all the chatter that is trying to figure it all out and prove to others you are right.

The real you is sooo much beyond these contracted thoughts you are identifying with.

[Thanatos13]

35 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Thanatos13 To me, it seems like you are attached to forms of “right” or “wrong” thinking. The thing is, you are both right and wrong. You just can’t see it. You are in conflict with others as to who is right or wrong. Usually, there is internal conflict as well. Many people get stuck in an intense right/wrong trap for years, even decades. I suffered in it for years before I was ready to let go. There is great peace and freedom with this direct experience.

That’s just my perspective. There are many other perspectives. Listen to your intuition and your authenticity- below all the chatter that is trying to figure it all out and prove to others you are right.

The real you is sooo much beyond these contracted thoughts you are identifying with.

Again no it isn’t. 

You are speaking from a place that is afraid to be right or wrong. I have seen it too often. It’s like wanting your cake and eating it too. 

Im willing to admit when I’m wrong and when I’m right. Rarely am I both. You are those in the middle who are afraid. You are trapped but can’t see it, but you believe it to be freedom. Peace comes from belief and you seem to prove that.

People who speak of direct experience must realize that such a thing is an illusion. We cannot directly experience reality.

Authenticity is yet another myth. The same with intuition. When tested you can find that it’s no better than a wild guess. You place too much value on personal experience and any magician can show why that is folly. As I said I used to think like you, but the more I questioned it the more it erodes away. My intuition and authenticity aren’t guides so much as wild guesses that feel right. But feeling right doesn’t make it true and either does experiencing something make it real.

The real You is a lump of grey matter in your skull. It isn’t beyond anything, though things can feel that way. All the profound experiences you use to justify your claims can be replicated by influencing it. Beneath all the BS and the mystics and the fairy language is nothing. Not fullness nothing, but nothing. 

You are foolish to trust personal experience and the inner world. That is the first mistake and it’s easy to show why.

Anything else is just a dream. 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Thanatos13

[SageModeAustin]

@Thanatos13 You are clearly a full blown skeptic of everything. Also you are a nihilist to the 10th degree. Nothing i can really say to get through that ego shield of yours. Good luck. You've got so much shit wrong with what your saying. It's like you merged into non practicality as your new logic, the irrational-meaningless-realm. 

[Forestluv]

@Thanatos13 Neither of us owns truth. We are both speaking relative truths based on our genetics, conditioning and life experience. You are speaking truth relative to the reality you have created.

Some work with a variety of psychedelics could do some good. They will blow away this reality you cling so tightly to.

[Jamie Universe]

Hey strangers I'm just gunna jump in

 

4 hours ago, Thanatos13 said:

I actually “do”, because I used to be that way. There is a reason I left mysticism, shamanism, etc. It didn’t answer questions and it blames the person when they fail. 

Have you done physcadelics? Or how long have you meditated for and that kind of stuff? Because if you've done those things and they didn't work, then that's some solid evidence for your point.

 

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 10:14 AM, SageModeAustin said:

@Etherial Cat I have a hard time not judging people, so this was really helpful actually.

 

I always try and understand their perspective and literally imagining being them, and then I have more sympathy and less judgement for them. It also really helps if you can think of a moment in your life where you've done something similar and then pair them together.

 

7 hours ago, Thanatos13 said:

Defending a position as right is what everyone does, even you as shown in this thread. Every idea and philosophy is the same. By that definition you have a contracted mind. 

@Serotoninluv Thanatos seems kind of right (even though its hypocritical for Thanatos and applies not just to you), I don't know you or Thanatos, but you are arguing or at least trying to get him to 'wake up' through words, but trying to tell someone the truth when they're not accepting it, is arguing (basically).

And I could be wrong, but I don't know when I've ever seen arguing work in convincing people to switch sides (That's not entirely true, but at least speaking on a large scale, you can see how arguing doesn't really go anywhere). 

My advice, sympathize.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thanatos13]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Thanatos13 Neither of us owns truth. We are both speaking relative truths based on our genetics, conditioning and life experience. You are speaking truth relative to the reality you have created.

Some work with a variety of psychedelics could do some good. They will blow away this reality you cling so tightly to.

Not really. All they do is elicit a chemical reaction in the brain. They don’t do anything more than that. Anything beyond that is simply people assigning meaning to a neutral occurrence. I know this having known people who do it, they can say that it doesn’t mean anything if you don’t make it so. 

As I said, there is no absolute. All we have is relative reality. It’s not really created so much as it is already there. You cannot truly know whether the reality you live in is “it”. Personally it doesn’t matter because this IS reality until otherwise proven. Reaching for objectivity is just hubris. 

[Thanatos13]

50 minutes ago, Jamie Universe said:

Hey strangers I'm just gunna jump in

 

Have you done physcadelics? Or how long have you meditated for and that kind of stuff? Because if you've done those things and they didn't work, then that's some solid evidence for your point.

 

I always try and understand their perspective and literally imagining being them, and then I have more sympathy and less judgement for them. It also really helps if you can think of a moment in your life where you've done something similar and then pair them together.

 

@Serotoninluv Thanatos seems kind of right (even though its hypocritical for Thanatos and applies not just to you), I don't know you or Thanatos, but you are arguing or at least trying to get him to 'wake up' through words, but trying to tell someone the truth when they're not accepting it, is arguing (basically).

And I could be wrong, but I don't know when I've ever seen arguing work in convincing people to switch sides (That's not entirely true, but at least speaking on a large scale, you can see how arguing doesn't really go anywhere). 

My advice, sympathize.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Meditation and all that doesn’t mean anything if I take away the filters used to interpret the experience. Nothing changes as a result though it is hard to do since humans can’t help but attach meaning to things and events. It’s not like I wanted nothing to happen, I gave it my best attempt. But I cannot deny the results and I begin to question anyone who claims otherwise.

But you cannot imagine what it is like to be someone else. To say so would be a lie for you would literally have to inhabit their body or at least somehow occupy a space that lets you watch and feel as they do. Until such a thing ever occurs then you can’t really understand someone. Even comparing similarities doesn’t help since you don’t know their reaction. People are good at hiding things.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Thanatos13

[Forestluv]

10 hours ago, Thanatos13 said:

Not really. All they do is elicit a chemical reaction in the brain. They don’t do anything more than that. Anything beyond that is simply people assigning meaning to a neutral occurrence. I know this having known people who do it, they can say that it doesn’t mean anything if you don’t make it so. 

So. . .  you have no direct experience? You are like someone theorizing about an apple, coming up with ideas and concepts about the essence of eating an apple. You are telling people that have actually eaten an apple what it means to eat an apple.  Yet, you have no direct experience of actually eating an apple. 

[Nahm]

@SageModeAustin (op) Entirely possible. There is beauty oozing from every person. Hard to miss with the heart, easy to miss in a brain/penis paradigm. Lol. 

[Thanatos13]

3 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

So. . .  you have no direct experience? You are like someone theorizing about an apple, coming up with ideas and concepts about the essence of eating an apple. You are telling people that have actually eaten an apple what it means to eat an apple.  Yet, you have no direct experience of actually eating an apple. 

I’m saying experience and accounts vary to the point that you can’t make any claims about them beyond saying they elicit a reaction. Like I said, people make meaning. I used to think I had a dream of being reincarnated, but without knowing about Buddhism or any other framework that says so it would just be another dream. Without concepts the “experience” is meaningless. Concepts don’t have to involve words either. Same with meditation and other methods. If I don’t make meaning then they don’t tell me anything. 

Like I said, direct experience is meaningless for asserting claims because humans are very easy to fool. You don’t know if something else could be responsible, and feeling something isn’t the same thing as it being true or real. We also tend to value the meaningful stories people tell about the experiences, like yours but discount the ones where nothing happens. All you did was craft a story around your experience. “Blow away reality” is definitely more gripping than someone who’s reaction is “meh”. 

“Eating the apple” doesn’t tell me anything without a framework to interpret it. Otherwise it’s just random sense data. Two people can eat it and have different reactions, but all I can say is that it’s food. 

Like I said, you aren’t interested in truth just magic.

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

@SageModeAustin (op) Entirely possible. There is beauty oozing from every person. Hard to miss with the heart, easy to miss in a brain/penis paradigm. Lol. 

There actually isn’t. That’s just a value judgment that we make. If you want to be “objective” then there is no beauty.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Thanatos13

[Nahm]

@Thanatos13

You are creating your own reality. 

Prove me wrong. 

 

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, Thanatos13 said:

I’m saying experience and accounts vary to the point that you can’t make any claims about them beyond saying they elicit a reaction. Like I said, people make meaning. I used to think I had a dream of being reincarnated, but without knowing about Buddhism or any other framework that says so it would just be another dream. Without concepts the “experience” is meaningless. Concepts don’t have to involve words either. Same with meditation and other methods. If I don’t make meaning then they don’t tell me anything. 

Like I said, direct experience is meaningless for asserting claims because humans are very easy to fool. You don’t know if something else could be responsible, and feeling something isn’t the same thing as it being true or real. We also tend to value the meaningful stories people tell about the experiences, like yours but discount the ones where nothing happens. All you did was craft a story around your experience. “Blow away reality” is definitely more gripping than someone who’s reaction is “meh”. 

“Eating the apple” doesn’t tell me anything without a framework to interpret it. Otherwise it’s just random sense data. Two people can eat it and have different reactions, but all I can say is that it’s food. 

Like I said, you aren’t interested in truth just magic.

There actually isn’t. That’s just a value judgment that we make. If you want to be “objective” then there is no beauty.

I'm not saying theoretical concepts have NO value. I'm saying theoretical concepts AND direct experience BOTH have value. 

Perhaps this may be a bit more straight-forward. Imagine you are a psychologist that specializes in helping alcoholics to recover from alcoholism. You know A LOT of theoretical concepts such as alcohol metabolism in alcoholics, cirrhosis of the liver, different concepts on the psychology of denial, etc. You *know* the theoretical concepts of craving and withdrawl. Yet, you have never had a drink of alcohol in your life. Does the psychologist's conceptual knowledge have value? Can the psychologist help the alcoholic recover? YES and YES. . . Now consider a person who drank alcoholically for 15 years. He injured himself and others, multiple DUIs, etc. And then he joined a support group, quit drinking and got his life back together. He has been living a healthy sober life for 10 years. He has very little conceptual knowledge, yet he has A LOT of direct experience of being an alcoholic and the direct experience of quitting alcohol. He *knows* the experience of cravings and withdrawl. . . Does the recovering alcoholic's direct experience have value? Can the recovering alcohol help a fellow alcoholic recover? YES and YES. Both the theoretical conceptual knowledge of the psychologist AND the direct experience of the alcoholic have value in different ways. BOTH are a component of the truth. You are taking the position of a psychologist that argues the direct experience of the recovering alcoholic is delusional - without having any direct experience. As well, alcoholics are trying to tell you "Dr. XYZ, the direct experience of recovering alcoholics is really helpful to me. It sheds new insight". And you respond "No, that direct experience is delusional, it's not true. Humans are easy to fool and you don't know if those feelings your new friend describes are true ". The patient responds "Gee, it *really* seems like my alcoholic mentor knows what the experience of craving is like". To which you respond "No, that is just a feeling - we don't know if it is true or not. Forget that direct experience. Let me tell you the theoretical concepts of what alcohol craving *really* is". The patient responds "What you say about craving makes sense in a way, yet the direct experience of craving is not quite the same. My fellow recovering alcoholics with direct experience of craving seem to have a different type of knowing than you. Taken together, I think and feel like I have a deeper and broader understanding of the phenomena of craving. By the way, have you ever even had a drink before". You respond "No, and it doesn't matter. It doesn't limit my perspective at all.". . . 

Both concepts AND direct experience have value. They go hand in hand. 

[Forestluv]

16 hours ago, Jamie Universe said:

@Serotoninluv Thanatos seems kind of right (even though its hypocritical for Thanatos and applies not just to you), I don't know you or Thanatos, but you are arguing or at least trying to get him to 'wake up' through words, but trying to tell someone the truth when they're not accepting it, is arguing (basically).

And I could be wrong, but I don't know when I've ever seen arguing work in convincing people to switch sides (That's not entirely true, but at least speaking on a large scale, you can see how arguing doesn't really go anywhere). 

My advice, sympathize.

Nice observation! My intention is not to convince Thanatos of anything. You are correct about his mindset. However, there are other forum members that have a similar block as Thanatos. There are forum members that are genuinely trying to move past this block. There are a lot of members that read threads without posting. For them, I am revealing the nature of this trap and showing what a higher conscious view looks like. It will resonate and help some members. As well, I will use this thread to help individuals I advise in real life.  In particular, individuals trying to evolve from Orange to Green. I spent about 20 years as a strong Orange. I know it well . . .   I've got bigger fish to fry than Thanatos.

[Kosmos]

21 hours ago, Thanatos13 said:

There is a reason I left mysticism, shamanism, etc. It didn’t answer questions and it blames the person when they fail.

Mysticism doesn't fail for everyone, it just fails for most people.

[Nahm]

@Kosmos Mysticism doesn’t answer questions, but uncovers the limitations of ‘knowing’. If it answered the question, it wouldn’t be mystical. No?

[Kosmos]

33 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Kosmos Mysticism doesn’t answer questions, but uncovers the limitations of ‘knowing’. If it answered the question, it wouldn’t be mystical. No?

Sure. (and nice poetic twist by the way). (and hello by the way, nice to meet you, *deep bow to the moderator(and fellow human)(and to everyone else on here, inc Leo et al)*)

 

I was using Thanatos13's "fail" as terminology.

From my perspective, mysticism uncovers the limitations of 'knowing' for some people, but does not uncover the limitations of 'knowing' for most people.

From all the people in the world who have some sort of introduction to mysticism, or interaction or relationship with mysticism, I am fairly certain the vast majority won't end up experiencing the limits of knowing that it points to. Out of all the people who ever do some some type of meditation, what percentage ever realize a non dual experience?

 

What I was trying to say, was that even if Thanatos13 thought that mysticism "failed" him, that isn't exactly surprising (in an orange statistical sense), and doesn't mean there isn't something about it which can be ... ermmm.... mystical.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Kosmos

[Shadowraix]

@Thanatos13 It seems like you haven't finished your journey in self inquiry..which is fine, I haven't either. Takes much work of contemplation.

You have not sorted out what you can and can't trust in yourself. (I still struggle with this myself)

Some more meditation and inquiry regarding this would be useful.

[Nahm]

@Kosmos Yes welcome to the forum, great to meet you, yada yada ? You make some great points there. Sounds like we are aware one can only fail one’s self, which is mystical on it’s own I suppose.  I think I was taking mystical as in absolute, rather than paranormal / inconsistent reality.   How many meditators have a nondual experience is a fantastic question. In that light, I totally see and agree with where you’re coming from. It’d make a great pole.   Just for the record, I am not a moderator. 

[Kosmos]

26 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Kosmos Yes welcome to the forum, great to meet you, yada yada ? You make some great points there. Sounds like we are aware one can only fail one’s self, which is mystical on it’s own I suppose.  I think I was taking mystical as in absolute, rather than paranormal / inconsistent reality.   How many meditators have a nondual experience is a fantastic question. In that light, I totally see and agree with where you’re coming from. It’d make a great pole.   Just for the record, I am not a moderator. 

I understand. I kinda jumped into the middle of an ongoing discussion, so it makes sense that we would initially talk past each other a bit.

 

You said "we fail one's self" regarding the people who die without ever realizing the paranormal reality. I think that is true, most people fail to do what is necessary to have such realizations. At the same time, I think society / external systems also fail us. At the moment humans are not given a "free ride" to enlightenment, it is "personal responsibility". But that isn't necessarily how society will be forever. In the West, virtually no one starves to death, virtually no one is illiterate. Virtually no one dies in child birth, (including mothers). 20,000 years ago those things were not provided by society, the systems, technology, culture, education system etc etc etc wasn't equipped to create widespread guarantees of those things. There was a large necessary "personal responsibility", some people succeeded, some failed. Now, a large degree of that responsibility (but not all), is being handled by systems/technology/laws/culture etc. Fast forward another 20,000 years, I think there is a good chance that "having a non dual realization" could be something that society experiments with guaranteeing as a right. Then people like Thanatos13 will be less likely to have a "failed" experience with mysticism, because humanity will have figured out more of the bugs in the system and will more successfully be able to present situations in a way in which a much higher % of people will more likely walk quite far down the path of mystics.

 

It says "moderator" under your avatar in green...? Not sure what that means. Either way, sorry for the holy status I wrongly attributed to you!

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Kosmos

[Nahm]

@Kosmos “Gauranteeing as a right”  - seems obvious now, very nice! Great vision.   Not sure society could fail us, it is us. Thanatos didn’t  “fail” imo. I don’t think he sees it that way either.       Wonder if it will ever be possible that there are so many more rights, that the system of laws and rights would be unnecessary, an enlightenment tipping point maybe. It sure wouldn’t hurt to have more feminine influence in society.       The moderator comment...sorry....yes I’m a moderator, happy to be, just not so much a status in the sense there are levels, or ranking, more keepin an eye on name calling, pretending we know stuff, spam, etc.